When did parents stop being the boss

I agree with you. Taken to the extreme, allowing a child to question and discuss your decisions can lead to completely impractical situations (like your medical appointment example) or just end up with a huge amount of time devoted to negotiations.

Example, I have a friend who takes the ‘my kids can always question my decisions’ line. So, she’ll say no to something, and then the child harangues her for ages trying to change her mind. She doesn’t (usually) change her mind, but she also won’t put a stop to the questioning and whining, so they’ll then discuss the ‘no’ and the reasons for the no for absolutely ages. All the while, the kid is thinking that there’s still a chance she’ll relent (because they’re still discussing it, after all), and gets more and more frustrated and stressed trying to get a different answer. And then the cycle repeats with the next request. And often, these requests are for things she can’t say yes to, like being allowed to play on her phone when a friend is there for a play date, or sweets right before lunch. So it’s almost like the fact that she’s willing to give so much airtime to each ‘no’ makes them think that she’s going to give in to SOMETHING, so they’ll then just keep going requesting one thing they know they’re not allowed after another, thinking they’ll eventually hit the jackpot. She feels like she’s saying no while giving them the chance to question her, but I think that the lengthy discussions give the message that she’s uncertain, and that results in a child very motivated to keep whining and nagging because they see a chance that she’ll relent.

I’m all for providing kids with reasonable explanations and listening to their feelings, but without any limits, you end up spending far too much time focusing on whatever is causing their disappointment and dissatisfaction and not much time doing other stuff. In my example, a child would be better off being given a quick reason why not, then being firmly told that the answer is definitey no, huffing a bit and then doing something else. Otherwise, a simple ‘no’ over sweets can turn into a lengthy discussion that leaves everyone feeling worn out and frustrated. Over the course of a day, that can be hours of frustrating conversations, and I don’t think that leads to a happy child or parent.

I see a LOT of weak parenting and it just seems really exhausting for the parent, all that bribing and negotiation around every single thing. I could not be arsed with that at all. I saw toddlers at playgroup ignore their mothers pathetic attempt at controlling them. "Oh they don't listen to me.." tinkly laugh "Don't do that darling, the lady will get cross" ie I'm your friend but won't discipline you directly but expect someone else to. I've seen parents undermine each other in front of the child which is a huge problem.

My parents were far too strict with me, children should be seen and not heard etc. DH & I have worked really hard to get a balance between the two, hard line boundaries regarding behaviour and guiding advice when they are struggling whilst allowing our kids to have their own voice and choices to explore the world and make their own mistakes as they got older. So far, our DDs are well adjusted and well behaved young ladies. We're not perfect and made loads of mistakes but overall I'm pleased we did what we did.

We started very early with partially flexible baby routines and stayed consistent and backed each other up when needed. They slept through from 10 weeks. Toddler tantrum kick back was interesting but we stayed strong with the boundaries and they always knew No! meant no. We used simple psychological tricks like giving them small choices to make them feel in control whilst still achieving the end goal, eg red or blue shoes when they want to go barefoot. I've witnessed parents asking their kids if they want to put their shoes on, the obvious answer will be no and then followed a huge and unnecessary battle. I used distraction a lot when they were very young and wound up. Once they were old enough to have a discussion, I did always acknowledge their frustration whilst explaining why we had to do xyz. They felt listened to and understood I wasn't being a dictator for no reason, unlike my parents, "because I said so".

As they grew up, we didn't need to discipline at all really, I love that they are involved in family discussions and help choose things like holidays. My 17yr old is hilariously judgy of badly behaved children. I love that my teens come to me to chat about any issues they are having, I didn't have that and lashed out as a response.

So many conversations recently where the other parent says 'well, I just can't make them' or 'I have to give them that choice' or 'I've given up on that one'. Examples of these things include phone usage, bedtime, mealtimes, attending events, or just essentially anything the child doesn't enthusiastically agree to do. I normally just smile politely but I want to scream at them to just take charge! You can make decisions to stop your child doing something which is not in their best interest.

But here's the thing: parents can also make decisions based on what they personally feel is proportionate and right for their own family.

Parents are entitled to pick their own battles. You don't get to decide unilaterally what's worth taking a stand on. Nobody can live up to a perfect ideal and most people in life make compromises based on what they think is worth the effort.

For example, some parents will absolutely refuse ever to allow their child to have a McDonald's because UPFs aren't very healthy - no matter how much the child begs for one and no matter how many friends' parties or outings the child misses out on. Equally, some other parents might think 'Well, I'd rather they weren't eating this crap at all, but it's not enough of a big deal to have a big battle over so I'll let them have a Happy Meal now and again'.

I know for a fact that my mum (who was a childcare professional!) would have liked me to be in bed and asleep a lot earlier for most of my childhood. But I was a rubbish sleeper as a kid and a natural night owl and eventually she just thought 'You know what, sod it - let's compromise on this one instead of stressing about it, it's not going to kill her to go to bed at 10pm instead of 8.30 and at least she's not waking us up at 6am'.

Absolutely fair enough if you don't think that would be OK for your child but that doesn't mean your way is right for all children.

I am 100% the boss in my house and the DC are crystal clear that that is the case

Agreed.

The best parents I knew were friends of ours. (Sadly, the dad died young - only in his 50s.)

They had three children and had the best parenting style that I ever saw. They were their children's friends but also the boss at home. Lovely people with a close knit family.

The mum was involved in drama at one point. Her mantra was always "Life is not a rehearsal." They made the most of every day.

If you're in your 30s I'm guessing your parents were boomers or Gen X and I agree re trauma being passed down. I'm Gen X myself (in my late 50s), and imo (and this is not intended as an excuse for crap parenting) we were parented in a way that didn't equip us brilliantly to be parents ourselves. The emphasis was on keeping your kids alive, fed and out of trouble till they were old enough to fend for themselves. Little emphasis on emotional support or nurture, at least in my experience and that of most of my friends. There was love but it was shown a lot less. A lot of us weren't as close to our mums as many people are now, because you grew up with the idea that your parents were authority figures first and foremost. I don't have kids myself, and I often think that's just as well because I wasn't given much of a blueprint for parenting lovingly. My parents loved me a lot and they did show it in their own ways, but attempts to confide in my mum about emotions would be shut down rapidly. A lot of people of my parents' age (Silent Generation, which kind of speaks for itself really rueful smile) really weren't in touch with their own emotions and certainly didn't believe in discussing them, or other people's, even their children's.

Like I said, it's not an excuse for toxic parenting. If people really don't think they can emotionally nurture children then they shouldn't have any. I'm just trying to provide some possible context as to why there might be so much NC'ing of parents my age and slightly older.

I read a quote once that said "of course you think you could parent that screaming child in the restaurant better. That's how the human race survives, everyone thinking they could be a better parent. Until you find out no you bloody well can't".

Actually most people can. Normalising this kind of atrocious behaviour in this way is what allows this kind of behaviour to continue. The parents just use it as an excuse.

I've had this with my next door neighbours.
The kids are nice enough, as are the parents, but l've had two solid years of them kicking footballs into my garden (I found eight in my garden, more than once when l got home from work).
I've finally put my foot down, said l'll give them back once a week, as l'd throw them back, then an hour later they'd be at my door because there was another one in the garden. If l wasn't at the door within literally seconds, they'd be looking in the window.
At least one other neighbour has complained too, they've been climbing over her fence into her garden to fetch balls (recorded on cctv), and all you get is "They don't do it on purpose" and "balls go where balls go."
That lady asked "Who's going to pay for it if they damage our cars, either with footballs, or by climbing into the garden?" No response.
I've now put a lock on my front gates, as the eldest (he's 14) came into my garden to retrieve footballs (without asking if it was okay for him to do that), twice in a week.
I've had them actually playing football on my front lawn (open plan front gardens, no fence/wall), kicking it against the house wall and close to my bay window.
We have a big green area literally across the road, l asked their mother ask them to play on the green, ten minutes later, they're back.
She said "Well l tell them, but they forget...."
We also have a lot of big trees by the green, one in particular, the kids climb on it (fair enough, that's what kids do) but my other neighbour caught them stripping the bark off the trunk. She spoke to the dad, and he said "Well l tell them but they take no notice."
There seem to be no consequences. They're not a horrible family, we got on fine until this started, but it seems they don't comprehend that 'parent' is a verb as well as a noun.
To be fair, until recently l worked on a checkout, and l could write a book about some of the 'parenting' l witnessed....

But I didn’t say that either did I?
Youre putting words into my mouth to prove a point when actually, from your last post, it sounds our ways are closer than they appear. Why doing that??

I do think the point about children being different is an important one. We were certainly lucky with ours and never had to be particularly strict. They were always polite and engaged and did well academically and socially at school. I can't say with any authority how we would have parented had we ended up with more challenging children.

I do know that all three of them sort of had fundamental personality traits from the day they were born that sometimes required different parenting approaches to different situations with each of them.

How to spectacularly miss my point….

It’s not about letting children do stuff because other children do.
Its about the impact on them.
When your child is telling you theyre starting to feel like an outcast, then you have to take that into consideration. Even if that goes against what you thought was important.

Actually, that was why I said over about 10 but probably wasn't clear that I think there probably is an age group where children DO need the seat - too big for laps, too small to stand safely. DD is 10 and I'd say she's been too big for my lap for a while but is only now at a point where I'd feel comfortable with her standing without me being there to support her.

I think that "respect" in asome sort of standardised way, with flexibility where needed is helpful. <shrug> And sometimes that means that yes, it's done on age.

I disagree with this. I was brought up to think for myself and because of that I didn't give into peer pressure and do things like start drinking and smoking at 14 years old (like all my friends were doing). If you teach your kids to question they will also transfer this into their life choices.

Where we're disagreeing is you seem to think that giving up a seat is a mark of respect and that children should demonstrate unconditional respect to anyone older than them.

I think giving up a seat is something you do because someone else needs it more than you do, and that people of all ages deserve equal respect. I have an invisible disability and find standing hard but I wouldn't assume I'm less able to stand than a 10 yo, they don't yet have the muscle tone of an adult.

On a point of practicality, I wonder if you've ever tried going anywhere with an 8 yo on your lap.

It doesn’t have to be this way. I’m very loving with my very wilful DS but I am in charge and what I say goes. I get the impression some of DS’s friends think I’m almost too firm, but it’s because DS is a handful and pushes boundaries- if he’s was very compliant I wouldn’t need to be firm!

If he’s “naughty” then there’s no TV for X number of days or no biscuits or whatever. We’ve never let him play on phones, iPads or computer games. I will be holding out against a phone and social media for as long as possible. I wanted DS to have a “traditional” childhood of being outdoors a lot, getting muddy and climbing trees, lots of “small world” imaginative play and books, so that’s what we do. He watches plenty of TV but we monitor content.

I actually think there’s a big correlation between rising age of parents and getting to be too tired to be parenting teens, so giving in to them for a quiet life (I’m an older Mum myself). I don’t blame parents for this as we’re all working and completely knackered, but you don’t help the child by letting them have loads of tech and time hiding away in their room or giving in to their every demand.

Also, just to add to this, I think that teaching children general rules of society helps them. I have a friend who while she expects general politeness, felt that this obsession with please and thank you iin the UK was silly. And she didn't feel the need to impose it on her children.

But the problem is that quite frankly, it makes her children come across as quite rude. And she has acknowledged that she made a mistake as they get older because the older one has really struggled with behaviour at school ... she felt that he didn't need to learn the "norms" and the result was tha he behaved in ways the school didnt like and it set him back. She's corrrecting this for her other chidlren who are younger.

Same in our house, exactly how we like to parent and I'm 42 and kids are under 10

My dcs are young adults now.

Ive never bought into the ‘well I can’t make them’. I know that by most standards, I was strict and ‘over the top’ (eg with my dcs bedtime).
However, it is true that there are things where you simply can’t say ‘my house my rules’.

eg I avoided any screens fir many many years. Until the dcs were around 8~9yo and it was clear it was impacting their social life. No XBox=no play date for example.

Then they started secondary school…..
School used iPads in class so each child had to have a personal iPad. Where homework was.
Now try and control the use of iPads when they’re also used for school work. When you don’t have full control of the iPad (because school needs access) etc….
Limit screen time? Forget it. The best we managed was to ensure they’d spend as much as possible outside the house doing other activities.

And then of course, you have the fact that, each child is different and often, it works much better to have a flexible approach that a one size fits all rules.
eg A night owl child won’t respond well to an early bedtime. (And yes they exist! I’ve met a 6 months old baby fighting sleep just because there was some of her parents friends around. She is now 18yo and still doesn’t go to bed until 12.00am. Never has and never will).

So yes I get why you say that it looks like some parents are giving up.
But your aproach ‘my house, my rules’? It’s totally unrealistic and over the top.

As mentioned this is just my friends and my experience, but as it’s almost all my friends it seems like it may be common (or it may not!). I would imagine that your DC and their friends are probably good parents if they themselves have had good parents, which means they’re probably not the subject of this thread

Well if they have an invisible disability they also shouldn't stand or could ask for a seat. TFL will give you a badge. I have one. Point is, it's quite rare for there not to be a single able bodied adult on public transport. Being a child is usually quite obvious to everyone. I wouldn't want my 5 yo standing on a bus. In fact, if we are on a train or bus and there's no seats, an adult will usually offer her a seat because she's obviously less able to stand.

"So sometimes you have to make a call on what is right for him, even if he doesn't like it, yes?"

I have some absolute boundaries, mainly around safety but I believe behaviour is communication ( particularly with my son because he is non verbal) and I approach parenting from that perspective. I look at what I want the long term outcome to be rather than taking an authoritarian approach. For example if my son was refusing to get on school transport I would be considering what the problem might be rather than trying to force him on.