Mayflower primary school - nappy changing facilities for school aged children

and the children who are incontinent but have no learning disabilities so would never be accepted into a sen school?

Kids should be potty trained before starting school unless it’s a sen school which accommodates the kids additional needs.
it’s truly lazy parenting from loser parents that’s keeping kids in nappies. They should be told - nappy means not ready for school and the kids can go to a private school until toilet trained.

Kids should be potty trained before starting school unless it’s a sen school which accommodates the kids additional needs.
it’s truly lazy parenting from loser parents that’s keeping kids in nappies. They should be told - nappy means not ready for school and the kids can go to a private school until toilet trained.

What I’m getting at is has anyone actually said to an older child in a school setting “would you like to try doing it in the toilet instead of the nappy? It would be much quicker for you and you’ll feel much cleaner and more grown up” or similar?

Or does that run contrary to
guidelines about child-led training?

I’ve had the same conversation with DD about night time and she had been able to tell me that at night she just doesn’t feel it happening at all and doesn’t wake up when it does, which is fair enough and why we continue with night pants.

Communication may be part of the issue here?

Unless it's a special school, schools should not allow children that can't even wipe their own behind.
It's disgusting to expect school staff to do it.

This is where places like SureStart centres were amazing. Their entire purposes was to support families who were struggling. I think we are seeing the natural consequences of stripping away so much early years support.

This is absolutely a change. In the past it's been rare to need these kinds of facilities on a regular basis.

I think the most basic reason is that in the past the general view would be that if a child's toileting could not be managed within the regular facilities a school had, they are not ready for mainstream school. Now schools are viewed as a kind of childcare that needs to meet the needs of all students in the same setting, no matter how disparate.

So people who had children who were just slow developers might wait an extra year or so to start them in school. In fact at one time where I grew up (not the UK) there was a "school readiness" checklist, which suggested that a child should normally have met certain milestones before beginning school. Being toilet trained was one.

People also used to really try and make sure children approaching school age had met certain milestones. Able to do up a coat, comfortable in the toilet without help, know their phone number and last name, that kind of thing. People no longer seem to do this as often (I see kids of 9 quite regularly in my job who do not know their phone number, more than half in a class typically!)

Children with special needs were often in other kinds of provision if they couldn't manage with a fairly standard school washroom set up. Not always specifically because of that issue, but also because they often had other additional needs that the school wasn't the best place to meet.

As far as kids with no special needs - I think there are a few reasons more are not trained when coming to school. To my mind it is a combination of FT working parents, childcare facilities run without adequate support to really meet children's needs when they are there for long hours, some very bad advice recommending that parents delay training past the optimal time which makes it harder later, and a belief by parents that they should not be in conflict with their children and things like toilet training should come easily.

This just seems fraught with problems to me.

Risk assessments in place in each school/setting/nursery.

There are clear guidelines as part of the EY Framework. Sometimes children have to be changed ‘half in half out’ of the bathroom area, so that the adult can be seen and so that they can oversee other children whilst they do the changing.

Perfect storm, less budget, less staff, more needs and soiled children to change.

How have we dealt with this in the past? Why are we needing new facilities now?

@TwoFeralKids@x2boys
I was one of the posters who spoke about how some other European countries don’t have a toilet training difficulties.
I also said that I believed it was a social issue rather than a rise in Sen diagnosis and the lack of specialist school places.
I ‘ll try and expand.
While I DO NOT feel that here ( in Italy) disability and SEN have better provisions on the whole, there are very big problems here too, I do feel that the differences in the set up for the age range 0-6 is key to this particular issue , ie toilet training.

Firstly all children are assigned a paediatrician from birth till 14 years of age. Children will be seen at regular intervals for 30/45 minute appointments where a whole range of checks will be carried out, as well as generally whenever they need to be seen for illness or advice etc.

Here parents are given detailed instructions and support about feeding, and subsequently exactly how to ween, with a programme of when exactly to introduce each new food type to best avoid allergies is given. Italian parents will be given a literal list of the order to introduce fruit and vegetables etc

Depending on the child’s birthday Paediatricians will instruct parents to remove nappies, in the summer before they turn 3.

The idea that parents wait till children show an interest isn’t really considered. They are told to take off nappies and advice on how to do this and that’s what they do.

At the milestone check ups 12/18/24/36 months all children are monitored and children who show differences outside of the normal range of development, will have been already seen by specialists during this time.
A child with a speech delay would be seeing a speech therapist within a relatively short time.

Italy has state run preschool provision for 3-6 year olds. When I say that children start at 3 or just under out of nappies I think I should make a clarification. The children don’t wear nappies, but their training, as in using the toilet, is part and parcel of the educational process for this age range .

WE DON’T EXPECT 2/3 YEAR OLDS TO BE SELF SUFFICIENT IN TERMS OF TOILETING.
We expect them to come in and be used to not using nappies, but not to remember by themselves to go to the toilet.

Children use almost classroom sized wet rooms with 8/10 miniature ceramic toilets, sinks and a shower.
They go to the toilet as a class, all together, first girls then boys. They learn how to undress, use the toilet, wipe, wash hand and redress. This happens basically every 2 hours for the first year.
It’s a fundamental part of preschool.
Children who have accidents or children with SEN who use nappies are changed and washed by state employed female caregivers who do this as part of their role and again are considered a fundamental part of this stage of education. Class teachers don’t really deal with nappy changes because they are responsible for supervising the rest of the class.

One difference is that the children don’t get a choice , and parents are used to and go along with this type of approach. They sit on the toilet at 9:00/ 11:00/ 13:00 and 15:00 whether they want to or not.
They can decide to not use the toilet if they don’t want to, but they still have to sit down.
This acceptance of not giving young children choice over certain things, and accepting that they go along with how things are done is fine by parents and you don’t generally find parents who want exceptions made.
For example all children eat a portion of fruit mid morning. There is usually the odd child who doesn’t want to eat what’s offered, and obviously they aren’t forced to eat anything, but they sit with the others and no alternative is offered or allowed. Same with lunch, which is a year long menu designed by specialists.

For the first 2 years, so from 3-5 roughly, if the school has adequate space, all children will sleep in little separate beds in a dormitory. They sleep for 1 -1 1/2 hours. Again there aren’t any exceptions made. Parents who don’t want their children to sleep, or at least lie down in the dark take them home, they can’t stay awake and play.

Italy doesn’t have separate education for those with disabilities, and this has drawbacks in my opinion for a proportion of children with disabilities so it’s not a case of being better.

However as a country they feel that it is beneficial to society to provide access to a paediatrician and have a state run free full time education of 3-6 year olds before their more academically focused education begins at 6.

I wonder what happens to kids like mine in other countries? I am trying to potty training my three year old who has a speech delay (just one words only at the moment) and possibly on the spectrum. He sits on the potty but nothing yet. I have a feeling he won't be ready and potty trained before school nursery. You can only keep trying. Should he be denied school nursery because he won't be likely be ready? I know in Spain they have to be dry at two so he would miss out. Some kids just take a while. My daughter wasn't poo trained until six.

@TwoFeralKids@x2boys
I was one of the posters who spoke about how some other European countries don’t have a toilet training difficulties.
I also said that I believed it was a social issue rather than a rise in Sen diagnosis and the lack of specialist school places.
I ‘ll try and expand.
While I DO NOT feel that here ( in Italy) disability and SEN have better provisions on the whole, there are very big problems here too, I do feel that the differences in the set up for the age range 0-6 is key to this particular issue , ie toilet training.

Firstly all children are assigned a paediatrician from birth till 14 years of age. Children will be seen at regular intervals for 30/45 minute appointments where a whole range of checks will be carried out, as well as generally whenever they need to be seen for illness or advice etc.

Here parents are given detailed instructions and support about feeding, and subsequently exactly how to ween, with a programme of when exactly to introduce each new food type to best avoid allergies is given. Italian parents will be given a literal list of the order to introduce fruit and vegetables etc

Depending on the child’s birthday Paediatricians will instruct parents to remove nappies, in the summer before they turn 3.

The idea that parents wait till children show an interest isn’t really considered. They are told to take off nappies and advice on how to do this and that’s what they do.

At the milestone check ups 12/18/24/36 months all children are monitored and children who show differences outside of the normal range of development, will have been already seen by specialists during this time.
A child with a speech delay would be seeing a speech therapist within a relatively short time.

Italy has state run preschool provision for 3-6 year olds. When I say that children start at 3 or just under out of nappies I think I should make a clarification. The children don’t wear nappies, but their training, as in using the toilet, is part and parcel of the educational process for this age range .

WE DON’T EXPECT 2/3 YEAR OLDS TO BE SELF SUFFICIENT IN TERMS OF TOILETING.
We expect them to come in and be used to not using nappies, but not to remember by themselves to go to the toilet.

Children use almost classroom sized wet rooms with 8/10 miniature ceramic toilets, sinks and a shower.
They go to the toilet as a class, all together, first girls then boys. They learn how to undress, use the toilet, wipe, wash hand and redress. This happens basically every 2 hours for the first year.
It’s a fundamental part of preschool.
Children who have accidents or children with SEN who use nappies are changed and washed by state employed female caregivers who do this as part of their role and again are considered a fundamental part of this stage of education. Class teachers don’t really deal with nappy changes because they are responsible for supervising the rest of the class.

One difference is that the children don’t get a choice , and parents are used to and go along with this type of approach. They sit on the toilet at 9:00/ 11:00/ 13:00 and 15:00 whether they want to or not.
They can decide to not use the toilet if they don’t want to, but they still have to sit down.
This acceptance of not giving young children choice over certain things, and accepting that they go along with how things are done is fine by parents and you don’t generally find parents who want exceptions made.
For example all children eat a portion of fruit mid morning. There is usually the odd child who doesn’t want to eat what’s offered, and obviously they aren’t forced to eat anything, but they sit with the others and no alternative is offered or allowed. Same with lunch, which is a year long menu designed by specialists.

For the first 2 years, so from 3-5 roughly, if the school has adequate space, all children will sleep in little separate beds in a dormitory. They sleep for 1 -1 1/2 hours. Again there aren’t any exceptions made. Parents who don’t want their children to sleep, or at least lie down in the dark take them home, they can’t stay awake and play.

Italy doesn’t have separate education for those with disabilities, and this has drawbacks in my opinion for a proportion of children with disabilities so it’s not a case of being better.

However as a country they feel that it is beneficial to society to provide access to a paediatrician and have a state run free full time education of 3-6 year olds before their more academically focused education begins at 6.

What I’m getting at is has anyone actually said to an older child in a school setting “would you like to try doing it in the toilet instead of the nappy? It would be much quicker for you and you’ll feel much cleaner and more grown up” or similar?

Or does that run contrary to
guidelines about child-led training?

I’ve had the same conversation with DD about night time and she had been able to tell me that at night she just doesn’t feel it happening at all and doesn’t wake up when it does, which is fair enough and why we continue with night pants.

Communication may be part of the issue here?

Has anyone actually had a conversation with any of these supposedly NT children to ask why they prefer to wear nappies than use the toilet?

I was able to hold a simple conversation with my ASD daughter when she was two about the benefits of being dry (being grown up, getting to wear grown up pants, being more comfortable, being cleaner) and she managed to train quite quickly.

Genuinely curious to hear the children’s’ perspective.

Maybe the problem is that no one has actually had the conversation with them so the nappy wearing remains their norm?

I wonder what happens to kids like mine in other countries? I am trying to potty training my three year old who has a speech delay (just one words only at the moment) and possibly on the spectrum. He sits on the potty but nothing yet. I have a feeling he won't be ready and potty trained before school nursery. You can only keep trying. Should he be denied school nursery because he won't be likely be ready? I know in Spain they have to be dry at two so he would miss out. Some kids just take a while. My daughter wasn't poo trained until six.

I wonder if SEN is funded better in those countries? Early intervention, shorter waiting lists, earlier diagnosis, earlier support etc.