DH won't let daughter go on school trip to mosque

I think @Pickled21 has probably confounded them by being far too measured and reasonable.

are all the bigots and experts doing I can’t see it with this post? Unbelievably rational and measured response considering the other posts I wouldn’t have been able to do the same!

He is a parent and he has always right to decide as well as you. I'm muslim and my dd goes to guides held in a church. I dont believe she's going to get 'turned'. She knows who she is and where she is from and if she chooses something different for herself in the future then that's up to her. She hasn't been on any trips to other places of worship with school because school haven't arranged any but neither of us would have any issues if she did. My kids have been in their respective nativity plays. She has friends who are christian, and atheists and is more open minded at age 9 than many of rhe posters on here.

Your dh sounds unpleasant.

I know it's not a requirement of the faith. I also believe circumcision shouldn't be done on children.

I mean the consent argument with regards less invasive forms of FGM equally applies to male circumcision but our society has decided that’s a form of genital mutilation we are very ok lack of consent (although why does discussion of islam come to FGM unlike male circumcision it’s actually not a requirement of the faith).

I meant society in general, but there is some quite enthusiastic criticism of Christianity on this thread.

Again, if you are so desperate to see a thread on Mumsnet criticising Christianity or Jehovah’s Witnesses (who have been criticised so extensively they are the offline equivalent of a meme) or whichever other religion you’d like to see, feel free to start one.

There's no 'might', they are ostracised and can't marry. They're often seen as defective, unclean and promiscuous. It can have severe consequences on their families. In Somalia for example, it's a strong cultural norm where nearly 100% of girls have been cut.

So we are back to where I ask if women from these other cultures can ethically consent to such procedures and you say no because they might be too influenced by their community.

You may notice from my post history that J bow out when it becomes circular.

It's not important because of consent. A five year old can't consent to any of the forms of FGM and a woman brought up in a culture where FGM means she can marry and gain social status doesn't have a choice.

No one has the right to touch anyone without freely given consent.

I haven't seen numerous critical threads on any religion apart from Islam on here.

And when it comes to societal pressure, there is both real and imagined pressure when you don't meet societal standards of beauty. As well as ostracisation. It's just that we have an ethnocentric view of what counts in that respect.

My whole point with this is that true concern about consent and autonomy would start at home.

For the record, I am very pleased that the IPSOS survey I shared previously (if it hasn’t been deleted) shows many areas of shared values we have with Muslims. It has been an informative read.

I do strongly believe however, that just as we criticise the bad parts of Christianity and Jehovahs Witnesses etc, we must also be able to freely discuss and criticise the bad bits of Islam both here and abroad.

That is the way we can move forward more harmoniously, not with raging accusations of racism and Islamophobia which mean nothing and don’t add anything to anyone’s understanding.

The type of FGM is changing to less extreme forms. When you speak about FGM, typing is very important. Some people who know that type 4 FGM includes many practices considered legal here avoid the discussion in that context. But medically, it's important.

In Somalia nearly 100% of girls undergo FGM, the majority between the ages of 5-9. It's considered a requirement for marriage and means the family gains social acceptance.

The vast majority of women in the UK do not undergo cosmetic surgery. I don't know of any clans or communities in the UK that enforce cosmetic surgery and ostracise those that don't. I don't know of any groups that pressure girls to have plastic surgery before marriage

So I think I ignored something here. I mentioned Somali women earlier - and the response spoke as if all Somali women are from one community with the same values. That isnt the case. It's more like small communities in some countries practice FGM. In some countries, lots of small(er) communities practice this so it makes up a sizeable amount of the population.

This is the same as cosmetic surgery here. Small(er) communities practice it and reinforce it as a societal value. The difference is that our wider society, often who don't share these values, have monetised and therefore legitimised it. So it would be like of those countries doing what I said earlier and training surgeons to perform FGM on adults in safer conditions.

You can't compare the two. A woman who doesn't have breast surgery isn't considered unclean, loose, unsuitable for marriage and ostracised. Her family won't lose social status and she won't be blocked from community life.

I think its very productive as it shows people only care about certain abhorrent acts when Muslims commit them. They don't even know when other groups do.

And I think Jehovahs Witnesses have some awful practices as well but this thread was started by OP talking about Muslims.

Feel free to start your own about Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Your ‘gotcha’ hunting is not very productive or conducive to conversation.

Thanks. I am a Hindu by religion. There are extremists in all faiths. I went to a Methodist School, played an Angel in the Nativity Play and the Muslim portion of my family would have no problem in visiting a Church and similarly some have attended Church schools. The majority of Muslims would have no problems with attending a Church and did as I recall go on school trips to Wesley’s Chapel and York Minster. Albeit largely to have some fun in London and York respectively.

But how do you establish that a white western woman isnt feeling pressured to conform to societal expectations when she consents to a boob job? Remember not so long ago, you could get one on the NHS because they "understood" not having a certain size boobs could cause psychological distress.

Now you do have to get this privately. And people will use dodgy places to seek it out if the safe routes are inaccessible to them. The response to cultural pressure is the same.

It's a question of consent. Consent must be freely given with the ability to withdraw consent at any time.

If a woman is forced or pressured to have surgery on her genitals it's wrong. It doesn't matter what country or culture she's from, it's wrong.

So you'd do it by culture. Two women could want the same exact surgery, but if one came from a culture where it was highly valued, and the other came from a culture where it was a beauty standard at the current time (like a smooth looking labia/vulva is at the moment in Western culture), you'd be okay with the latter consenting the surgery as an autonomous adult?

I've already explained that I don't agree with FGM for women and girls. I've explained that it's a question of consent. Consent must be given freely with the ability to withdraw consent at any time with no negative repercussions.

I'm not sure why you chose Somalia where FGM is deeply engrained in the culture and a girl and her family face severe repercussions if they don't do it.

A child can't consent and consent cannot be given freely if there are negative consequences upon refusal.