To have not known kids have to attain grade 4 in maths?

Fortunately I left school in 1977, when it was 'hoped' you'd get at least a C grade in maths, but if you didn't then some fields and onward study were closed to you, but there were alternatives without having to get a maths qualification.

Which was lucky, because despite having 8 O levels at B grade and above, and being reasonably intelligent, I could NOT get maths. I retook my O levels and I even took a CSE, but my grades just got lower and lower each time. I think E grade O level was my highest. I went back to school later in life to try again and - nope. I've just had to resign myself to not being able to do maths.

It hasn't held me back in life at all and I've got a first class degree in my chosen profession. There were courses I wasn't eligible for (which was why I kept retaking) that I would have liked to have studied but, on the whole, life has been pretty good. And not having a maths qualification stopped me from being pushed towards a career in teaching, which I would have been DREADFUL at, so some good came of it.

I remember DS when they "3 is the magic number" song

I've said it so many times over the years, to all my students, you will never access the higher levels if you haven't got instant recall of your tables.

DD's year 4 teacher used to say this all the time. I used to have to test DD's tables all the time as they had tables tests regularly. The primary school was outstanding.

I'm a primary school teacher, and honestly, an average 11yo could get a 4 if they sat the exam now.

This is bollocks.

Back when we had National Curriculum levels, Level 4 was the average level of an 11 year old and Level 7 was roughly grade C GCSE.

Memorising the first few prime numbers too, so that you don't waste time trying to simplify equations that can't be simplified etc.

Trouble is that the necessity to memorise things like that means Maths teaching becomes inaccessible to those who have poor memories.

I really don't see the harm in providing a sheet of times tables and prime numbers to pupils to help those who simply can't remember them, however hard they try. They'd still be disadvantaged because it would take time to look up instead of straight from memory, but at least they'd be able to show some actual Maths skills rather than memory.

I teach in England, and also do private tutoring of primary and secondary pupils. 17 years of primary school teaching.
I can only comment on what I've seen over the years. And I stand by it. A "normal" 10-11 year old could probably get a 4 tomorrow, without too much strain.

I will add a small preface though... Only if they are fluent in their times tables. I've said it so many times over the years, to all my students, you will never access the higher levels if you haven't got instant recall of your tables.

That's not to do with inherent ability, it's solely due to the speed of the exam papers. If you want to get through the whole paper, you haven't got time to be sitting working out 5x9 or 6x12 on your fingers.

@x2boys although some with learning difficulties have difficulties in other areas of life as well as academics but don’t have a learning disability.

I got 5 GCSEs C and above, maths has just always bested me. I have pretty good mental arithmetic, and I worked in insurance for many years where I was calculating premiums etc.

I struggle with anything visual - angles/shapes. I can't picture things in my head at all. The "which 2-D drawing is the 3-D shape" being my ultimate nemesis. Not sure I've even described it correctly(!)

Yep so many people don't seem to understand the difference between a learning disability which affects all areas of life
And learning difficulties which affect academic learning.

Another good question.

I feel though that being Indian I come from a culture that's ingrained with maths. My mother and father sat with me and even helped me with university maths. I've sat with my children as well.

I also like learning with them because it helps me reactivate my brain.

And how many people go through life thinking they're crap at maths because of the way it was taught and the topics taught?

I remember in Year 6 my DS was going C grade maths. (The primary school brought in maths teachers from the local secondary).

There is a definite numeracy (and literacy) issue in this country that needs to be addressed. Makes me wonder how much of the population has "SEN"/"LDs"?

"I don't beleive an average 11 year old would be able to fet a grade four as there will topics thst haven't been covered, and if it was that simple,why are a third of 16 year olds failing it ?"

But OTOH, there is a lot of cross over with topics that have been covered in primary and if you can answer those correctly, you can get a 4.

This is Foundation paper (AQA Paper 1)

https://cdn.sanity.io/files/p28bar15/green/cbcd375a0a3162872a541455d298ecce4e738606.pdf

This is a KS2 SATS paper

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/664dc7b6f34f9b5a56adcc33/STA248818e_2024_ks2_mathematics_Paper2_reasoning.pdf

subject of course to genuine learning disabilities

Other SEN exists. Not all students who do not have a learning disability are able to achieve a grade 4. For example, some pupils who don’t achieve a grade 4 may not have a learning disability (which is a medical diagnosis) but they may have learning difficulties (general or specific).

"That being said, a couple of months ago, I sat the foundation level GCSE maths paper, just to see what it's like. I'm a primary school teacher, and honestly, an average 11yo could get a 4 if they sat the exam now"

Do you think that's true?

I mean the word "average" is doing a lot here. On the KS2 SATs paper, 73% of pupils met or exceeding expectations. A raw score of 54 / 110 means you've met expectations.

Do you think those pupils who met expectations on the KS2 SATs paper would also be able to get a 4 or above if they took the Foundation paper at the same time?

I agree that there is a lot of cross over between the Foundation paper and a KS2 SATs paper. Very similar concepts are covered in say the first 15 questions - and get those right and you've done enough to get 50%, so in the getting a Grade 4 region.

Of course - the key thing is - given someone got met expectations in the KS2 SATs paper, how likely are they to get a Grade 4 or above at GCSE maths?

And if they did not meet expectations in KS2, what are the chances of them getting a Grade 4 or above at GCSE?

And what can schools do to ensure that pupils who may not meet expectations have a good experience of maths at secondary school to provide them with the maths skills they need for life?

I don't beleive an average 11 year old would be able to fet a grade four as there will topics thst haven't been covered, and if it was that simple,why are a third of 16 year olds failing it ?
Even so
primary aged kids are doing maths every single day a 25 year old isn't
When I tried to help my then primary aged child with his maths homework there were things I had forgotten becsuse it's decades since I had a maths class and I'm a fully functioning adult thanks.

I agree. I've mentioned above about the typical/average 11+ papers being of comparable standard to lower grades at GCSE. So, I agree with your opinion of a grade 4 being the standard of a good 10 year old. Very worrying indeed that people six years older still aren't up to that pretty basic standard. Something is going very badly wrong with our education system if people having had 10/11 years of state education can't achieve the level of a good 10 year old (subject of course to genuine learning disabilities). I think it's a combination of trying to teach the wrong things, even the foundation paper is still academically based rather than real-life based. Whereas the 11+ is a lot more "real life" based without the complex algebra, trig, etc that most people simply won't need in real life.

What country do you teach in? Of course a 25 year old with an EHCP wouldn't be taught in a school. There's all kinds of bespoke packages, particularly post-16.

There's nothing 'kind' there, whatsoever, love.

That's not true.

Can you imagine trying to get a 25yo man into a classroom to study for GCSE maths?! Simply wouldn't be possible. I believe they need to keep trying until they're 18 (might be 19), but after that, it's "oh well."

That being said, a couple of months ago, I sat the foundation level GCSE maths paper, just to see what it's like. I'm a primary school teacher, and honestly, an average 11yo could get a 4 if they sat the exam now.

I'd kindly say that if a 25yo can't score the same as an average 11yo, they've probably got more problems than GCSE maths.

I agree. Especially on the foundation paper.

I struggle to remember them as I don't use them in everyday life, so I draw a square/equilateral triangle in my head, and cut it in half to calculate. That's too complicated for DD.

Why do pupils need to remember that sin 60 is sqrt (3) / 2?

Or similar for sin 30, cos 30, sin 45?

That's just a test of memory. Yes, there are ways of working it out if you can't remember them but what is the mathematical purpose of having to learn the exact value?

I got D (twice) in GCSE maths.
I went along to an adult class about 8 years ago, I aced the screening test and I was doing really well, but life got hectic and I had to give up.

I tried again 2 years later and didn't get through the 1st stage.

I have to clarify that I don't just remember formulas. I have a good understanding of the principles underlying mathematical formulas and can apply them when necessary.