To have not known kids have to attain grade 4 in maths?

You can do functional maths at school. Or you don't actually have to take maths at all if you are at a specialist school. My daughter (ASD) is at a specialist school and they are all doing what is suited to their abilities and aspirations.

I think it's down to highly educated people like that not realising how simple some things actually can be. They sometimes look for complications when there are none.

I see a lot of it with some of my highly educated clients such as IT consultants, who in theory should be absolute whizzes when it comes to accounting, VAT, tax returns, etc., but are absolutely hopeless with basic/simple stuff, looking to solve problems that don't actually exist.

Many of them simply can't get to grips with simple book-keeping software and get themselves tangled in so many knots seemingly trying to avoid doing the simple things. I've lost count of the number of them who've given up on book-keeping software and created their own convoluted spreadsheets or databases which are an absolute nightmare to work with and completely unnecessary (and prone to errors despite all kinds of "proofs" being built in that are utterly bonkers to a layman but probably make absolute sense to someone with a masters degree!).

I think one of the most memorable was a woman who'd retired and started making/selling jewelry more as a hobby than a business. Very low turnover. I literally only needed two figures from her - the total of her sales for the tax year and the total of her costs for the tax year. All she needed to do was list out the in's and out's and give me two figures. That's what I asked her for. What she produced was from a different planet - a multi-tabbed purchases spreadsheet with every single component purchase listed, linked to a multi tabbed sales spreadsheet with every single sale listed, and broken down into exact amounts of each component that was used to make every item made, another spreadsheet showing the detail of every component (or part thereof) that was scrapped, broken, etc, a spreadsheet breaking her postage costs down into each sale, each envelope posted to pay a bill, etc., it was a work of art - completely useless as she'd forgotten to put dates on any of it and it spanned more than one tax year, so I couldn't use it as it didn't show the sales and costs figures for the specific tax year. (It was also a pile of crap as there were so many errors, mistakes, etc., but it looked pretty). What she thought I wanted was light years away from what I actually wanted - she just hadn't listened or had listened but assumed she was right in her thinking and I was wrong.

It's actually a pretty common trait in more highly educated people to actually second guess what they think someone wants rather than listening to what they tell you they want.

My DH has A-Level in Further Maths at grade A but falls to pieces and can't cope when it's time to do the annual Self Assessment tax return.

Im.pretty sure they did I had to retake maths at college in 1991
The only reason I dropped it during my third attempt was because I had a place on,a nurse training course who accepted a science of you didn't have maths but I remember my sister needing,if for uni although she was doing primary teaching
But I also remember a lad that only got into.uni after eventually passing his maths on about his 7th attempt!

Wales did split maths into seperate numeracy maths and maths GCSE.

DS sat maths Nov Y11 and then did numeracy in May and DD2 sat Numeracy in Nov Y11 - and is sitting maths now.

I think they mostly get similar grades in both - or grade out.

Every where still asks for maths and English language at grade C not numeracy or Literature. They can also still leave education at 16 in Wales but apparently only if they have C in maths and English - no idea how that's enforced.

However most go on and college course anyway and college has full classes for maths and english GCSE retakes though they do allow them to re-taken - or one at leasts - next to other courses including A-levels.

Year after next it's all reform and maths and english have both been combined to one GCSE again - a GCSE worth double others. Not sure what impact that will have.

Yep, this is true. Not sure about the age but my DS had to retake at College. Finally got it on 5th attempt!

Or they could be bright but struggle with the school environment, social interactions and pressure like my DS.

He is very capable of doing very well in most subjects, but keeping him able to do the work is difficult.

I think you have nailed it with the 'life skills maths' point. I can do all of the things you mentioned without having grade 4 GCSE maths. We don't need the exam certificate to function in society, but we do need maths.

And it has to be said, I know people with grade 4 and higher GCSE maths who can't actually do a fair few of those things.

You know what I mean though. Some people would have written me off as a failure. And actually, nearly 30 years ago, I did have to do some written stuff, especially on when I was doing payroll and holiday.

And later as a finance manager in a school, I certainly had to use maths and do some in test form as part of the interview.

Oh, and I got an E in maths back in the day, in 1996. No one cared much then, I still got into college for A levels and could have gone to uni (other friends who did badly in maths gcse did).

I didn’t end up doing A levels I went straight into work. As an accounts assistant, doing maths stuff all day 🤣 I picked up sage and them excel really quickly, the maths gcse didn’t hinder me one bit.

That was my ds. He got level 9s in English, history, German, level 8s in science, computing.

Level fucking 2 in maths. He struggled with it from day dot. I remember struggling with him to get the concept of number bonds to ten when he was 5.

He wanted to do English, history and politics A level but becuase he didn’t get a 4 or above in maths, they wouldn’t let him. He had to do a Btec. He wanted to stay at his school so they put him on the business one - which included a lot of maths. That made no sense.

He had to take the level 4 along side it, and got a 4 the next year. He wasn’t allowed to retake along side a levels.

I would just say, that colleges (and posibly apprenticeships) have to comply with their Condition of Funding. Sometimes there isn't flexibility.

My son who struggles with English exams (and was optimistically awarded a grade 3 during Covid), had a year off after dropping out of sixth form. During that year he did a Functional Skills English course and passed Level 2.

The following year he started a BTEC at college but due to his grade 3 he had to continue studying English GCSE. He didn't attend classes at first (thinking his FS covered it) but was told he would be thrown off his course if he didn't turn up to English GCSE classes and exams. PP is right, it was more mentally stressful than his main course. Only saved by having a really great English resit teacher.

No not missing anything that's exactly what it's for.

@monkeysox I can see the point of Entry Level for someone below GCSE grade 3 (or 2), but can't see the point for someone who has a 3 and is trying to get that illusive Level 2 pass. Am I missing something?

Entry level will give some success. I've taught it.

https://qualifications.pearson.com/en/qualifications/edexcel-entry-level-certificate/mathematics-2017.html

That is my concern. She gets a reader, but the wordiness may be too much. We won't know until we try post GCSE.

Entry level maths are step down from gcse. Much more accessible. Ask school about them.

Functional skills is harder if children struggle with reading.

Have you tried a paper? Quite a challenge for many learners

45/80 ish on 3 x foundation papers is usually grade 4

Not true. Functional skills doesn't cover the breadth of curriculum

Don't know about university.

Once DD had passed L2 FS English independently she was allowed by college to drop the GCSE resit.

Is English functional skills seen as the same level as GCSE by colleges and universities for the heavily stem leaning child