To have not known kids have to attain grade 4 in maths?

Someone doing Foundation Maths will have had a 6 years of primary maths and 5 years at secondary maths.

That's a lot of maths lessons.

We then split them into 2 groups -pupils who do Higher Maths and those who do Foundation Maths.

I don't know what proportion take Higher versus those who take Foundation.

73% of pupils achieved the expected level at KS2 maths.
60% of pupils achieved Grade 4 or more at GCSE maths.

For the pupils, that's 5 years in secondary school going over many of the same concepts they would have done in primary school - as when you compare a KS2 SATS paper and a Foundation Maths GCSE, there's not much difference for 5 more years of learning

Maths Foundation GCSE

https://cdn.sanity.io/files/p28bar15/green/1170ee44760aa53249c184343b19e67944c49a52.pdf

KS2 Maths paper

https://www.mathsgenie.co.uk/primary/SATS2022P2.pdf

@ElfAndSafetyBored

I think there should be a basics maths for everyone with the truly useful stuff in it and leave all the pointless stuff for A Level or advanced maths GCSE.

Google for sample 11+ maths papers and you’ll see a pretty good basic level of numeracy which would be ideal for such a basic maths exam as you suggest. All the basics and none of the more advanced/harder stuff. That kind of level should be the minimum school leaving standard and gateway for taking harder maths to check the basics for more maths- able students at a younger age for selection into streams/sets etc

such as https://owltutors.co.uk/resources/papers/11-plus/maths-paper1.pdf

Yes same but for the most part i get maths

But could you open a paper in cyrillic or mandarin and be able to answer it?

and yes you could learn it and you could then answer it or it could always look like Cyrillic because no matter what you did or how hard you worked you couldn’t make it make sense

and that is what maths is for a lot of people. You show the Cyrillic paper to a native speaker and it would instantly make sense and they could do it and answer but for you it still wouldn’t make sense. And you don’t have SEN or extreme learning difficulties as you said because you read something in English it makes sense

You really can't think outside your own little bubble can You ?
I.can do it so everyone can do it 🙄

Whilst this is true, the maths I see my year 10 child struggling with has no practical use in life. I’m talking solving inequal equations and the like.

I’m in my fifties, cannot do most of the maths my child has to learn (even after watching the sodding video, which never quite matches the question they have to answer), but I have a very good career and have never ever needed it.

I think there should be a basics maths for everyone with the truly useful stuff in it and leave all the pointless stuff for A Level or advanced maths GCSE.

Many of the non calculator questions give process marks which require you to show working out.

Can you understand that this is a challenge for many learners?

Hah!

@Butchyrestingface I see it's going well!

@InPraiseOfIdleness the National Reference Tests are used to decide if a year group is particularly bright or not so much, and they adjust grade boundaries accordingly so it is possible to make comparisons between year groups.

The disingenuousness and faux naivety of some posters on this thread is breathtaking.

Some people just don't 'get' maths. Just because they didn't know anyone could get a grade 4 or their year 6 pupils could pass a foundation paper doesn't mean anything, and just makes them look and sound like an idiot and a crashing snob.

I have a friend whose DD achieved 8s and 9s for all GCSE subjects except maths where she got a 4. She went on to achieve exceptionally well at A level and an excellent law degree, but maths was and still is her bete noire.

Please stop sneering at people who struggle with maths.

If you 'get' maths, then yes the Foundation paper could be considered quite easy. But if you don't 'get' maths then it isn't.

I'm in the (slightly frustrating) position in having a degree in maths but with a DD who needs to resit (again).

There are so many things that she finds hard. Start with instant recall of times tables (no, despite years of us doing this), adding 2 numbers in her head (no, because she can't hold the two numbers and the result all at the same time), wordy problems (because, well, dyslexia), long problems (complete lack of confidence so will often stop before the end even if going in the right direction), naming of shapes (recall of less used stuff, the words get buried i the filing cabinet of her mind). Ultimately she can do most aspects on the paper, but can't hold enough of it in the forefront of her mind all in one go. Add that to low stamina due to her MH difficulties she is still recovering from which means she runs out of steam.

@sashh Recipe doubling or halving or tripling is ratios not algebra or simultaneous equations.

I looked at the foundation papers.

I could do the non calculator paper all in my head.

The 2 calculator papers I could do almost all of it in my head. But with pen, paper and calculator it would be fine.

I disagree, you do use GCSE maths, without realising it.

The last time I used trig was at uni (I was a mature student) and I was helping a drama student who wanted to find the area of a stage. Actually that's not true because I started an OU course but it was the last time I used GCSE trig in a real world setting.

Ratios I don't use as much because supermarkets started putting the price per kg or 100g but if you are in a supermarket it is useful to know whether a large pack of something is better value than 2 small packs.

If you are following a recipe you are using algebra, if you have a recipe for 4 people but you are cooking for 8 then you are using simultaneous equations.

I actually love the more abstract side of maths (eg imaginary numbers) but I do think an alternative paper could be written to use practical maths eg in cooking or changing the oil in a car, or - well practical uses. I know functional skills is more like that.

My DD is sitting Foundation Maths (highest available grade is 2 (D? in Wales),so she’ll have to continue studying Maths at college. However, I believe there are exceptions. In these instances there may be other Maths courses they are allowed to follow in college with a greater emphasis on eg everyday Maths/Numeracy.
In DD’s case,her Autism diagnosis assessment report suggests she might have Discaclulia, so I’m hoping this will be taken into account.

Algebra?
Trig?
Simultaneous Equations?

By making the contents of the paper more challenging over time standards can still be raised.

The pass mark is set based on normal distribution. Pretty sure that’s a topic which should be covered in GCSE maths? 🤣

The pass mark will be set based on a bell curve representing the normal distribution of marks on the specific paper in order to provide differentiation between different levels of achievement, rather than everyone aiming for a “baseline” absolute percentage of marks (like happens through much of early primary school: that approach also has negative impacts by creating perverse incentives for teachers to focus a disproportionate amount of time and resources on those around the pass mark boundary disadvantaging the very able and those who really struggle).

However, the “bell curve” approach also has logical problems e.g. in one year - by chance - there may be a particularly high number of more gifted children (or the opposite) so the same student sitting a paper in different years might get a different mark. On a large scale with so many students sitting the exam the bell curve should provide a reasonably accurate way to stratify performance, but what the grades then show is how a student performed compared to their peers who sat the same exam. What it does not show is any direct comparison to someone achieving the same grade in a different year (despite many people thinking it does) but that would be the case anyway given that the papers change (which is one problem the bell curve is trying to address: examination boards try to “test” papers and iron this out to make them roughly the same difficulty across years but this is only successful to a degree and it’s not unusual for there to be errors in exam paper questions therefore the “average” mark being lower, for example. So an absolute pass mark in such circumstances would mean that many students fail who shouldn’t have failed).

The main problem with bell curves is when there is an attempt to use them on a dataset that is too small… as happens in many systems such as most companies’ performance grading systems for example, even when they are looking at something ridiculous like a team of 10 or 15 people where the normal distribution approach has no statistical validity.

I suppose that’s yet another reason why a basic grasp of maths and statistics is important in life and everyone should be encouraged to learn as much as they can of it (with far better teaching than currently) so that they can understand the world around them and the systems they exist within and how these impact their lives, and also when to challenge obvious statistic falsities/ misrepresentation.

I think we must have very different definitions of “fun”

@1SillySossijyou sound like an awful and v naive teacher - shame on you

So why do a third of pupils fail.ever year ??🤔🤔

I once gave my y5/6s a foundation tier gcse paper to attempt for fun and they nearly all achieved grade 4.You do need to be spectacularly bad to fail!

My daughter is about to take it for the 4th time. She’s been going to night school since leaving college last year. She got a 2, 1 and then 2. Despite a private tutor and night school she doesn’t think she’s going to get this time either. It’s frustrating as she uses functional maths every day in her job but it’s really holding her back. She’s very bright, very mature and an incredibly hard worker but she just doesn’t get maths . She got 5’s and 6’s for all her other GCSE’s. I really feel for her. Every knock back she gets on the job front really zaps her confidence.

You would think wouldn't you ?
But no my sons college has consistently put him.in for GCSE despite getting respeatedly,low grades
Last year they assured me he was on functional skills and I only found out a few weeks in they had yet again enrolled him.for GCSE ,it's frustrating for everyone.

Oh the wonder of Mumsnet.

Poster A: How could you possibly not know this?

Poster B: It’s not true. How could you possibly believe this?

😂

I teach in further education. Students who get a grade 3 in GCSE maths or English have to resit until they get a grade 4. This is to do with the conditions of funding for their vocational college courses (how surprising, it all comes down to money). Most colleges now get students with grade 2 to also resit GCSE maths and English. Students with grade 1 or U are put on functional skills maths and English courses. If they are aged 19+ at the start of the academic year then they don't have to resit, as maths and English is not considered a requirement of their course at 19+. Some students with EHCPs do stay in education until 25 but this is quite rare. The students that do stay in college to 25 are often given exemptions from having to do exams in maths and English, unless they choose to do them.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5334391-aibu-to-think-going-to-an-rg-university-means-absolutely-nothing?page=2&reply=144264990