To have not known kids have to attain grade 4 in maths?

If you had a calculator, would you be able to work out 10% or 1% of a number and understand what you have done?

i.e you've divided a number into 10 equal groups or 100 groups.

I'm sorry to hear that, I worry my DS might be the same. As with most SEN-related school issues, it feels like jumping through hoops for the sake of it, with no real outcome

I had no idea about this, my DS is 14 and has ASC and dyscalculia, awaiting an EHC decision. I just assumed if he couldn't get a maths GCSE it would just be how it is. Hopefully he might be able to get a grade 4

Actually, back in the day, you really didn't if you got A levels in the subject you were going to do at uni. I did it, admittedly not immediately after college so it might have been different as a mature student (which, at 25, I was).

I had to retake maths GCSE at college, whilst doing my A levels but didn't get it. Nobody, at any stage, told me I wouldn't get into uni without it to do a degree in English literature. I think it very much depended on what subject you were applying to at uni.

I understand the concept. I can't do the sum IYSWIM. Same with fractions. It's the actual calculations. It's probably wrong of me to say I don't understand percentages in terms of knowing what they represent., I don't understand how to work out what 25% of say, 75 would be.

I understand that if I have a whole cake and cut it into four, I will have four quarters. But if you ask me what one quarter of 75 is, I couldn't tell you. The bit I don't get is how to work it out, which was always my problem.

I'm better with whole numbers, so I could tell you what half of 100 is without too much thought. I'd have to sit down and work.out half of 75, though.

Like I said an a reply to another PP, I can't subitise, I have to physically count. There doesn't seem to be any sort of connection to numbers in my brain like there is with words. When asked to spell a word, it appears as an image in my brain. I 'see' the letters slot into place.

The best way I can explain it, which is imperfect because I don't know how people who can do this actually do it is that I can't see it in my head.
I can't see how the sum should look. It's like a sort of blindness.

I'm rubbish at explaining all this, sorry, but it's like an empty space where numbers ought to be and they just... aren't.

My DS does not have a hope in hell of getting grade 4, he's phobic about maths and has been since primary school. He also really doesn't do well in an academic environment and wants to leave as soon as possible. He has ADHD.

There are so many things that she finds hard. Start with instant recall of times tables (no, despite years of us doing this), adding 2 numbers in her head (no, because she can't hold the two numbers and the result all at the same time),

I had this issue - assume related to dyslexia and short term memory - some time tables I was working out from others and addition and used fingers for some number bonds but I have A-level maths I think difference was my primary teahcers didn't make me think I couldn't do maths.

My kids schooling seem to focus much more on mental arthimetic and one who struggled often then thought they were bad at maths.

DD1 got to y 2 and it became clear she hadn't grasped number placement - it was why she was transposing numbers - so thanks to MN we turned to mathsfactor - 4 years every day at least 20 minutes of maths a day - more with games and summer and winter schools - bar two weeks a year. It took youngest till last month so round 4 years to finally stop having to work out one bit of times table - same pattern again and again. Then they had really fast recall - teachers were always surpised by all of them.

Much as I was frustrated by their primary school maths teaching - it is hard to see how they could have given the level of practise my kids apparently needed.

For child with worst memory - a secondary maths teachers told us well they have a maths brain must have always been good at maths - we said err no in fact dyscalculia was suggested by the primary school at one point.

I think many maths probelms start in primary school -- but there a huge variation in how kids pick up maths principals - some just can't and some like my kids need ridiculous amount of practise on top of school.

@ObelixtheGaul

And from an educational point of view, I don't really know what they could have done differently to help me understand.

Well, if the teachers keep "explaining" it in the same way, then you're never going to understand. What is needed is lots of different ways of teaching/explaining, starting by going backwards to what you "DO" understand and then moving forwards again, but doing different things and finding different ways of explaining, in very small increments.

You say you can't understand percentages, but were you competent with fractions before percentages were taught? If not, then that could be the problem. Were you ever formally told that "per cent" means per hundred - lots of people weren't/aren't where teachers just "assume" it's obvious. If you know fractions competently, then it's a very simple incremental improvement to understand that half equals 50 per cent, i.e. 50 per hundred, or in division terms 50/100, then simplify that down to 1/2 back into a fraction. Hey presto, you know understand the basics of percentages, and that's something that can be worked slowly on to improve your understanding, i.e. a quarter is 25% or 25 "per hundred" which simplified down to 1/4 again, back to the fraction you started with. Yes, to an adult, that seems simple and obvious but to a child/pupil, even a teenage one, going back a few steps to the basics like that can really be a lightbulb moment.

It's only like in days of old you needed C or above in maths to get to uni. I'm not mathematically minded/dyscalculia so had to re-sit my maths gcse while doing my A levels to ensure I got a C in it.
Guess it depends on what they want to do. I wanted to get my degree so did what I had to do.

It is. I can't tell you the shame I felt when my mum told me my teacher's response to her inquiry about extra tutoring for me. He said, 'there is no point. She isn't going to pass.'

DD already has level 3 vocational qualifications and UCAS points in her chosen area.

But she got a 3 in English (2 marks off a 4) and a 2 in maths at GCSE so can't study for a BTech in her chosen area, where she is talented.

She is now a NEET, because in the time it took to get the English GCSE remarked all the level 2 courses filled up. Not that any of them were in her areas of interest.

She has a private tutor and is focusing on Functional skills English. If she can.pass that she can do the BTech in her area of interest. The BTech is 70% practical, and the remaining 30% is written work, but not under exam conditions. She'll be fine. But until she ticks a box in an unrelated subject that she struggles with, she can't study something she's good at.

Under the current system she will then have to continually resit GCSE Maths, and probably fail each time, until she completes her BTech. Paid for by the tax payer.

She worked hard and her school gave her every support including small group classes, daily classes and one to.one help. She still got a 2. The resits will be a 3 hours a week in a block, and in a large class with no individual help. The chances of getting a 4 under those conditions are pretty much non existent, and I won't expect her to do anything other than turn up to class. Her time and energy will be better spent elsewhere.

And it's those same core concepts that are being revisited again and again but pupils still struggle to understand them

Which has to be massively disheartening.

Thank you, yes, that's it exactly. I used to say that I just don't 'see' it. I'm a good speller. I can 'see' words in my head, watch them form in my brain. I can't do that with calculations.

I can look at a word and instantly my brain, without any thought, will 'tell' me what it is, even if it's written backwards or jumbled up. But I can't subitise. If I see a collection of objects, to know how many there are I'd have to count them, even if there are fewer than ten there.

Fuck me. What a horrible thing to say about other kids who aren’t as bright as yours.

Some kids just struggle with maths. DD had an uphill battle with it all her young school years. Worked her bloody socks off where other bright kids were happy to coast because their natural ability meant they didn’t need to try. Did not give up. Got a 2 in her GCSE mock and was distraught. So sje spent half an hour with her dad almost every evening from then to her exam doing additional study (on top of school revision workshops and seeing a tutor).

When she opened her results and got a 4 (to jump from a 2 to a 4 in 5 months is a HUGE accomplishment. Fucking HUGE. Those boundaries are wider than the ones at the top) I almost cried with pride.

She now flying at A Levels with loving it.

Also interestingly doing Sociology and currently working on school systems. Reading how some schools will focus their efforts and resources on the high achieving kids as they know they will do well. While kids like her who work hard but struggle are left to flounder.

My DS could have passed it then too. Before his MH breakdown.

Because it still looks like Cyrillic to them.

Maths is in many ways a language, which has its own unique rules and structures.

For some maths is an easier language to learn than English. It just makes sense

for some it is a language that goes hand in hand with learning how to read

and for some no matter how hard they try no matter how much they look at it it is a language which doesn’t make sense

They don't just do Maths at 16... the GCSE period is intense, probably doing 6-8 subjects at least.

It could well be they could do better if the Maths exam was in February or March, so they were just concentrating on that.

It's not as simple as it being 'covered' though, is it? Times tables were 'covered' endlessly when I was at primary school. I still didn't know them because they wouldn't stay in there.

I know we did percentages in school. It was many years ago, but I know we did it. I still can't work out percentages without a calculator (and I had to find out how to do that, because we weren't allowed to use them for percentages in school).

I don't really understand why my brain doesn't grasp it, but it wasn't because I wasn't taught how to do it.

And from an educational point of view, I don't really know what they could have done differently to help me understand.

Whilst I now know I have dyscalculia, because it wasn't diagnosed (or even recognised) when I was at school, I don't know what needs to be done differently to help people like me, for whom just 'covering' it isn't enough.

How many children sit in class just not getting it, like I did? What do teachers do with the kids who simply don't understand? It's not enough to just keep repeating something someone hasn't understood properly, but might be able to do, parrot fashion, in the moment.

It's an interesting question and I don't know the answer to that.
Although I can't really see if another test is justified, I think it might be useful to have some kind of test in Year 9 to test basic concepts and then funnel people into foundation or functional skills as appropriate.
I think with the right support, some of that 40% could get a 4 or a good enough functional skills grade and not have to retake.

But - I suppose the question is - looking at those questions, how many pupils are still struggling with those questions that they covered at primary level and for 5 years at secondary - the same core concepts

If the grade boundaries are moved each year so that only 60% of kids can pass, then it doesn't matter how great the teaching is, a huge chunk will fail.

It would be better to have a baseline that everyone had to achieve on a paper of the same standard each year and then allow 80% or even 100% to pass if they reach the standard.

On this paper, get up to Question 13 right and you have got over 40 marks

https://cdn.sanity.io/files/p28bar15/green/1170ee44760aa53249c184343b19e67944c49a52.pdf

Question 13 is a percentage question. Something that is covered regularly in primary schools.

28 is increased by 25%
40 is decreased by 15%
Which answer is bigger?
Show how you decide.

It's worth 4 marks.

The questions past this are on inequalites, factorisation, some complex volume stuff.

But up to Question 13, it's concepts that are covered in primary school.

So, not a challenge for you, then. Jolly good. Thank you for letting us know. I have a sub-standard intellect. I can't do any of it in my head.

If you look at the Foundation paper, you need about 40 marks to get a Grade 4.

Most of those marks can be gained on concepts that will have been mostly taught in primary school.

But for some reason, 6 years of primary education and 5 years at secondary covering those same concepts again and again and the pupils still struggle on them in an exam.

How disengaging must that be for secondary pupils who are doing percentage again and not getting it, ratio again and not getting it.

I agree. Something is going badly wrong with the teaching when there are such poor outcomes after so many years of teaching. It all goes back to the basics. Maths is like a tree, if you don’t have solid foundations, the roots, then nothing will grow above the surface. Catch the strugglers early and just concentrate on the basics. No point teaching more complicated stuff if they can’t do the simpler things as you are just setting them up to fail.