To have not known kids have to attain grade 4 in maths?

Because I teach them and you posted " There’s nothing remotely tricky in that wording, even for a primary school child. " when I gave an example of how words could cause issues in maths even when the maths is known.

I was using them as an example in a discussion about language difficulties and you took it as an opportunity to sneer at them.

And then another poster suggested they couldn't be great kids.

Perhaps we should make empathy and kindness the required standard to progress in life.

Whatever.

Why are you taking this so personally? You seem very, very touchy on behalf of these (completely unidentifiable, whatever you say) children.
I just queried whether this was the normal expected standard for Year 9, because I don’t believe for a moment that it is.

With the face. Unnecessary, don't you think?

I wasn’t comparing them to me, I was comparing them to Year 9s I’m personally familiar with.
Who are, for the avoidance of doubt, also real children.

A great person who struggles with maths is still a great person.

A person who "gets" maths and sneers at those who don't is not a great person.

What, seriously? Like you doubt they can be great kids?

They're nice, funny, polite kids who want to do well. They come cheerily into the classroom and chat about their day, their lessons, hobbies etc. There are jokes and smiles. If I lend them a pen they'll say thank you and return it at the end. And we crack on and do some maths.

What's so great about them?

I should say that it is disputed whether 'dyscalculia' as a separate SEN actually exists. A lot of difficulties with maths that people may describe as dyscalculia can be traced back to those poor foundations of mathematical teaching.

Other things that people think are dyscalculia are slow processing speed and poor working memory.

There is a suggestion that children who are exposed to poor maths teaching at primary school never form that sort of sense around number that's required to make links between various areas of study. And then it's too late - so every method that they have to learn is distinct and separate and makes no sense, it's just something that is memorised. Halving is a different method to dividing by two, to finding 50%, because they don't connect fractions, division and percentages and have to memorise each.

It's like how children instinctively soak up languages when they are young, but adults learning have to memorise how to form sentences.

I suppose the thing is - it's the kind of language that is used in primary school from very early on.

Concrete examples of halving, dividing, sharing ,groups of, multiplying, lots of, how many groups in

So what do you think is going on if pupils are struggling with the language later on, having been exposed to the language from early on?

You need to bear in mind that you are talking about real children. You might not know them, but other people do, and some people on here are their family members. Making faces about how they struggle to decode maths questions in Y9 because you, personally, find it easy is unacceptable.

Like I said, they are great kids.

Maybe we should pick something that you really struggle with, make that a basic standard for progression and then make faces when you don't make the grade?

But something's going on when despite many years of being exposed to the language of maths, pupils still struggle with it.

Are we just doing the same thing again and again, without little improvement in pupils understanding of maths?

You're doing very well to keep your temper @noblegiraffe

I bet you are a fabulous and patient teacher.

So that’s the standard across all your Year 9s? Hard to believe.
I asked a question, btw. No actual children were harmed in the process.

But you talk about the language versus the maths.

What do you think is going on when pupils have spent many years being exposed to the language of maths, such as fewer, half, divided by, multiples etc but still struggle with this language at secondary school?

We don't use the words 'remedial class'.

Nor do we make faces about children.

These are great kids, who work hard and are polite and kind.

I always think that if it were required to get a grade 4 in art or PE to progress, I'd be screwed, even though I'm great at maths. And someone going 'it's just drawing a picture of what you can see in front of you, how hard is that?' would be rightfully told to fuck off.

You didn't know they needed a grade 4 and that maths and English need retaking until it is achieved or that this has to be done until 25?

I thought everyone knew that young people needed a 4. The retaking until 25 is, I think, a myth.

Requiring a grade 4 minimum is mentioned often enough in the media and by teachers. Pass grades at GCSE were grades A* - C when DD sat her GCSEs and everyone knew that a minimum C grade was required.

Year 9s?
There’s nothing remotely tricky in that wording, even for a primary school child.

edit: Unless you talking about a remedial class?

I didn’t know this and my kids are now in year 12. I don’t live under a rock! x

This kinda stuff makes me worried about the future of the UK workforce. If they can't interpret these basic mathematical sentences, what hope is there? It's not even a word problem, it's just a maths sentence.

If your child gets a 3 then have to keep retaking to try and get a 4. If they get a 1 or a 2 then they can do functional skills instead.

@TeenToTwenties thanks.
That is a confusing question in the way it was written.

@cakeorwine 'doing at primary' isn't the same as ''understanding it properly' or 'remembering a week after doing'

If DD doesn't do things very regularly she forgets them. I had to remind her last week re faces, edges and vertices. So she is struggling with something, we focus on it, she is fine, then I come back after a couple of weeks and it may well have gone again.

And we can't keep doing everything all the time, there isn't the bandwidth alongside college course and her getting through daily life.

And yet they will have done halving, dividing etc regularly at primary school.

With the words.

So what's happening?

I had a lesson with my Y9s a while back where we were doing writing algebraic expressions and they couldn't do '2 fewer than' because they didn't know what fewer meant.
They also struggle to remember that halving and dividing by two are the same calculation. If you tell them to halve a number, they find that easier than you telling them to divide it by 2. Same if you say 'what is 18 divided by 3?' they struggle with it compared to 'how many 3s are there in 18?'. It's not the maths, it's how it is worded.