Dad using individual ladies loo to change baby – what’s the etiquette?

Nope, sorry - female space, not for blokes.

I sympathise with the dilemma, but this is not my problem.

No I get that bit. Like I said, there are arguments for annd against.

I wasn’t being childish by asking if this conversation is beyond you, I was being facetious. I was actually thinking you were just being an arse about it because you couldn’t back up your assertion, so went with a faux naïveté about where a man with a baby would go to change the baby. But maybe I was wrong. Was that really beyond you? Do you really think that a single occupancy toilet room that is a unisex disable loo, and a women’s loo, somehow can’t be a unisex baby change facility but is restricted to female carers only, leaving men out in the cold? Because if so, that’s just really poor on your part.

The social context at the design stage for the cafe seems most likely to have been “Where can we fit the baby change? Oh, only in the bigger loo. Best make that the women’s then as they are going to need it more.” Which, whilst certainly driven by the context of babies being women’s work, is also grounded in the reality of the society it serves (where far more women than men will be changing a baby in a cafe). If they had instead stuck the men’s label on the bigger loo with the baby change, that would have made more women’s lives harder, in general, and been more sexist. But a different solution would be less sexist.

In the context of the petrol station - I don’t discount the possibility that it could well be sexist provision. I was just pointing out that wasn’t necessarily the case. If it fairly meets demand and men, women and babies all get provision without significantly longer waits than each other, then it isn’t. The baby change isn’t in a single sex space in this case. It’s in a multi-use, single occupancy space.

The introduction and design of wheelchair spaces feel like a minor change to most people yet it created a massive change in the social contract which we have when thinking about toilet spaces.

If there is a third space provided with wheelchair access and transfer bars most people would not use the empty third mixed sex space but rather will Q outside the door which matches their sex. We recognise that able bodies dont need the extra space nor the transfer equipment.

Most adults have babies yet babies and by default women as their "minder" were and to a point still are excluded from public space design. Toilets for both sex (once women got public provision) were the able design. When the law changed provision design for an accessable unit merged the availability of a foldup pushchair with the wheelchair resulting in 2 unit provision of an able mens and everybody else. The foldup also prompted a design change of adding a baby change unit as the size of the pram usually limited travel to areas local to the babys home.

Taking a wheelchair space provision and opening it to able bodies who have no need for the space or transfer equipment reduces the awareness of why the space is important.

By taking single sex provision from women to accommodate mens needs one downgrades importance of why the social change is needed. We should not be still designing sexism into social public spaces where mum gets handed the baby for a nappy change while dad stays put because even if he wanted to his toilet space has no provision for babies.

You don't seem to be getting the bit that other children will be present in the communal area where men are not expected to be, potentially without carers. By "protecting" your child, you are making others more vulnerable.

Especially wierd if you are just outside. More defensible if he was put with your child alone.

Family friendly venues should have family toilets, save a lot if angst.

I just googled this all, it seems this debate has been happening across the country.

That’s ridiculous sorry. Children who need assistance should go to changing room/toilet of the sex of the parent who is bringing them and that’s just it.

This would be ideal. It depends on the establishment where we’re in. And you know, normally I’d just take them to the ladies. But sometimes I’m knackered…

With the set up @horchatatresleches describes then the obvious solution would be for the cafe to designate one of the rooms as the baby change room with clear signage Mens Toilet/ Baby Change, or Womens Toilet/ Baby Change, or Toilet/Baby change, it doesn’t really matter which as long as the room is clean, big enough for a buggy and has a changing shelf. I think it would be unreasonable for both areas to be equipped for a baby change room in a small cafe but making it clear would only involve a sign on the door.

If they go down the Toilet/Baby change then they would of course have to put a sanitary bin as well as a nappy bin in both rooms

Maybe your dh needs to find a unisex toilet or a men’s with cubicle instead of using the ladies in these circumstances. I’ve never seen a man with a small child in the ladies to be honest. It’s a bit entitled to think this way.

I apologise. I have not phrased my argument very clearly. I am referring to young children.1-2-3-4-5 years old. When they need to be supervised on the toilet.

But you said its OK for men to go with younger children. You are contradicting yourself now.

That is what you are telling your husband to do! Potentially enter with other children

No idea why closed single toilets with sinks inside need to be male or female? Surely just toilet is suffice. I was at a restaurant at the weekend where they had 4 single contained toilets with sinks. Two female, two male. Queue huge for the female toilets and the two male ones were empty. Madness

@AnSolasThe male with a baby goes to where the baby change is in that scenario, if that is the only baby change. A ‘baby change’ sign denotes that is where anyone with a baby can change the baby, which is why the majority are in a space that either Men or Women can use, such as a self contained toilet / washroom. The fact that these are often also the accessible toilet is an issue, but it’s a different issue to the one being discussed here.

Obviously, the 8 year old able-bodied daughter should go to the toilet on her own. There if no valid reason for any man to enter with her.

i just think it’s an interesting view like I bring my ds who is 4 to the ladies changing rooms all the time at swimming pool. Is he exposed to naked women ? Probably sometimes. Would I go to the mens to avoid this happening ? No chance.

And for others, realising a man has entered what should be a womans only space just after their 8yo daughter, who is going alone as she is out with an uncle or grandfather, is more disturbing.

The fact that you need to reduce your input to a childish attempt to be insulting proved you cant admit that you see that the design stage of the building process both Service Station and Coffee shop is based on the social context of baby changing is still seen as womens work.

If the design was not sexist any able man would be able to Q for the Service Stations mens and change his baby in his toilet area.

5 toilets :

4 unit in a block for ;
male able body

1 unit for:
wheelchair access for males and
wheelchair access for females and
female able body and
baby change

1 male with baby goes where?

Like I’m saying, valid arguments on both sides of the debate. Somehow for me, walking a 2-3-4 year old daughter past urinating men seems very disturbing, to the extent that I think it trumps the right of a lady to adjust her headscarf. Walking a boy seems less disturbing.

Take him out of the pram and into the cubicle with you, seems the most obvious solution?

Many cafes have limited space so essentially have unisex loos, Often there is only one, so must do all comers including Trans.

People usually come up with some bullshit stereotyping that men piss everywhere and all instal cameras to spy on women so that even single occupancy has to be single sex. It’s total horseshit and having grown up in a country where single occupancy unisex is the norm I genuinely think people should grow up. Also if you’ve ever cleaned female toilets you will know that women do equally disgusting things.

I’m aware of the difference. But should little boys not be protected also from seeing strangers genitals by that token ? My dh brings my ds to the gents all the time regardless of whether or not there are urinals.

Women who need to adjust their headscarves are entitled to a private space without fear that a man with a child is going to barge in at any moment.

Anyone of any gender can use it

This. Coffee shop just need to take the m and f symbols off the two loos and indicate that one has baby change. Simples. Why is everything such a drama!?