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Dad using individual ladies loo to change baby – what’s the etiquette?

336 replies

horchatatresleches · 12/05/2025 17:36

We were at a small cafe we hadn’t visited before – just me, DH, and our baby DS. When DS needed changing, DH went to check the facilities but came back quickly saying the baby change was in the ladies so I changed him but it got me wondering about what is the etiquette.

The setup was one of those where the mens and women loos are both single-occupancy, self-contained rooms that open off the same hallway – not communal spaces with stalls. So it’s not like he’d be walking into a room with other women inside and making anyone uncomfortable. I’ve been to similar cafes where both loos are labelled gender-neutral, which seems simpler. Personally, I wouldn’t bat an eye if I saw a dad coming out of that kind of loo with a baby, but DH felt uncomfortable using the ladies even though there was no one else around. He wasn’t sure what he’d have done if I hadn’t been there to help.

Is there an etiquette about dads using the ladies in this kind of setup if that’s where the baby change is?
YANBU - he’s fine to use the baby change
YABU - he shouldn’t go in the ladies there

OP posts:
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RawBloomers · 14/05/2025 18:14

DrPrunesqualer · 14/05/2025 17:30

Well
They are providing a single sex space for men but not for women. So yes that is discrimination.
In which case the only way round it is to make them both mixed sex

It's not discrimination if it meets both men's and women's needs equally well. Discrimination is about the impact of provision, it doesn't require that provision be exactly the same if the usage is different.

Making them both mixed sex would meet women's needs less well as more men would be using the single-occupancy cubicle, making it less accessible for women, and women would me unlikely to find the communal facility suitable to use.

DrPrunesqualer · 14/05/2025 17:30

RawBloomers · 14/05/2025 17:24

I was responding to whether it was sexist, not whether it meets building regs. And for that, while it wouldn't meet the current regs, I can't think of which it would have breached prior to last year.

Well
They are providing a single sex space for men but not for women. So yes that is discrimination.
In which case the only way round it is to make them both mixed sex

RawBloomers · 14/05/2025 17:24

DrPrunesqualer · 14/05/2025 17:05

Well no technically from a building regs point of view it wouldnt conform as it’s not providing a separate space just for women but is for men.
Its a weird one
but it is a bit of a cock up tbh.

I was responding to whether it was sexist, not whether it meets building regs. And for that, while it wouldn't meet the current regs, I can't think of which it would have breached prior to last year.

DrPrunesqualer · 14/05/2025 17:06

Maddy70 · 14/05/2025 09:38

This it utterly bonkers. Small cafes often only have one toilet. They aren't in breach of anything

Agree they aren’t.
You can have one mixed sex space

DrPrunesqualer · 14/05/2025 17:05

RawBloomers · 14/05/2025 15:14

Not if it meets women's needs for the toilet as well as it meets men's.

Well no technically from a building regs point of view it wouldnt conform as it’s not providing a separate space just for women but is for men.
Its a weird one
but it is a bit of a cock up tbh.

RawBloomers · 14/05/2025 15:14

AnSolas · 14/05/2025 07:23

And by your own discription that is a build design with a dedicated man space and no dedicated womans space.

So sexist by design

Not if it meets women's needs for the toilet as well as it meets men's.

Maddy70 · 14/05/2025 09:38

Dotjones · 12/05/2025 17:39

He should just ask the cafe owner whether he should use the ladies toilet, and if not he should demand they provide suitable alternative facilities or he will sue them for sexual discrimination. Often they'll just back down if you kick up a fuss and threaten them with legal action.

This it utterly bonkers. Small cafes often only have one toilet. They aren't in breach of anything

AnSolas · 14/05/2025 07:46

horchatatresleches · 14/05/2025 03:42

I didn’t notice disabled facilities as I’m lucky enough to not need them. The ladies was the first room on the corridor - but I can’t imagine there was room for a third loo there, especially not big enough to be a disabled one. The ladies could have been, but I didn’t need the loo so only looked as far as the changing table. If it was the disabled loo also, that makes the ladies sign even weirder. Even if you accept that men shouldn’t use that space to change their baby (and despite the debate here, my view is still that making them both gender neutral makes most sense), a man who needs an accessible loo doesn’t have any other options - and as not all disabilities are visible there would be good reason a seemingly able bodied man would need to used the ladies (plus baby change, plus accessible bathroom).

Are you saying that you are old enough to have a baby and never noticed that the accessable toilet is normally also allocated as the ladies loo?

Try keep track of the wheelchair sign when you are out and see how many times it womens toilet and baby change too.

Do you believe that changing the social contract and making toilets mixed sex to benefit some men will also benefit all women?

Now that your husband is a dad how many mens toilets can he list where he can go that has a baby change?

Speaking to the manager raises awareness that baby changing is not womens work.

Is shows that you support the idea of having a baby change in the mens as it shows the service provider recognises the change in the social contract as men take on their share of child care.

AnSolas · 14/05/2025 07:23

RawBloomers · 14/05/2025 02:55

The petrol station design does not move a man into a woman’s space. It uses a single occupancy room for a number of different uses for people of both sexes.

And by your own discription that is a build design with a dedicated man space and no dedicated womans space.

So sexist by design

oblada · 14/05/2025 07:12

This is such a non issue. It was self contained units. I read the signage as "women and baby changing" meaning women can use this unit ALONG with anyone needing to change a baby regardless of gender. My husband has always used those facilities without batting an eyelid with our children. Different if it is inside a block of women's toilet where really there is an argument that fathers are not being catered for and it's more awkward for a man to come in. But a self contained unit? Honestly get a grip people. Maybe they can just improve on the signage and be done with it. What has the world come to though...

TheIceBear · 14/05/2025 07:03

Actually I agree with you op that the staff probably wouldn’t take action if this was raised with them, they’d probably look at you like you were a bit dim and point towards ladies,

tripleginandtonic · 14/05/2025 05:37

isthesolution · 12/05/2025 18:26

I think he should ask ‘where should I change my baby’s nappy’. Let the place you are at tell him.

I absolutely disagree that you should just do it- it’s perfectly reasonable that a baby change should be available to anyone needing to change their baby.

This.

horchatatresleches · 14/05/2025 04:49

DrPrunesqualer · 14/05/2025 04:01

He should ask the manager.
It would stress the sexist nature of the arrangement.
If there’s only one toilet for women and it has the baby change thats very unfare.
Women need the toilet more than men so there should be a unit in both toilets or somewhere else.

As an aside I don’t agree the toilets should be labelled as mixed sex or neutral.
Women need a toilet without wee on the floor and without the chance of a man hiding camera devices.
It happens more than you can imagine.

OP in the current circumstances of course your dh should use the facilities provided irrespective of location after he’s made them aware

Edited

The reason he didn’t ask is that the service was incredibly slow (one of the reasons we won’t be returning). I can’t remember if I said this already, but in the time it took him to take the baby to the loos, realise there was no gender neutral baby change, hand the baby to me and me changing the baby and walking back through the cafe, the person at the front of the queue was still waiting to speak to someone to order. Changing the baby quickly was more of a priority, because he had a touch of nappy rash at the weekend and we didn’t want it to worsen.

I also don’t see why making the cafe aware makes any difference if the concern is protecting single sex facilities. He’d ask, they’d say just use the one in the ladies and if they did take action, their only realistic option would be to make the loos gender neutral. As far as we saw there were two loos, one tiny one labelled men’s, and a larger one labelled women’s with a baby change. There was only one space big enough for the baby change so unless they move signs so that baby change is in the mens bathroom (which still means that around half of parents can’t access the space they need to change their child) there’s not another option. It’s not a large Costa in a purpose built out of town retail park which have modern WC requirements baked in. Most cafes I’ve been to of a similar size only have one loo for everyone.

OP posts:
doodahdayy · 14/05/2025 04:06

It’s fine. It really annoys me when baby changing facilities are in women’s toilets. Changing a baby isn’t just women’s work.

DrPrunesqualer · 14/05/2025 04:01

He should ask the manager.
It would stress the sexist nature of the arrangement.
If there’s only one toilet for women and it has the baby change thats very unfare.
Women need the toilet more than men so there should be a unit in both toilets or somewhere else.

As an aside I don’t agree the toilets should be labelled as mixed sex or neutral.
Women need a toilet without wee on the floor and without the chance of a man hiding camera devices.
It happens more than you can imagine.

OP in the current circumstances of course your dh should use the facilities provided irrespective of location after he’s made them aware

Topseyt123 · 14/05/2025 03:54

I'd reluctantly accept this, but think that all sides (both women and men) should make the point to the café owners that men are parents too so also need facilities to change their babies' nappies.

horchatatresleches · 14/05/2025 03:42

SerendipityJane · 13/05/2025 17:21

Your OP is wrong.

He wasn't using the ladies. He was using the changing area that happened to be in the ladies. That is down to the proprietors decisions based on limited space.

Just out of interest, where were the disabled loos ?

I didn’t notice disabled facilities as I’m lucky enough to not need them. The ladies was the first room on the corridor - but I can’t imagine there was room for a third loo there, especially not big enough to be a disabled one. The ladies could have been, but I didn’t need the loo so only looked as far as the changing table. If it was the disabled loo also, that makes the ladies sign even weirder. Even if you accept that men shouldn’t use that space to change their baby (and despite the debate here, my view is still that making them both gender neutral makes most sense), a man who needs an accessible loo doesn’t have any other options - and as not all disabilities are visible there would be good reason a seemingly able bodied man would need to used the ladies (plus baby change, plus accessible bathroom).

OP posts:
RawBloomers · 14/05/2025 02:55

AnSolas · 13/05/2025 20:26

You cant resist the urge to attempt insults and make up stories while trying to argue that toilet design which moves a man into a womans space because he needs to change his baby is fair provision. Removing him from the Able Mens SSS Q and add him to the Womens and Disabled Mens and anybody elses Q would not change wait times on either Q

The petrol station design does not move a man into a woman’s space. It uses a single occupancy room for a number of different uses for people of both sexes.

AnSolas · 13/05/2025 21:40

Aimtodobetter · 13/05/2025 19:07

Agree - I don’t know where this myth that public ladies toilets are a “safe space” comes from. My safe space is my home with locks and under my control. I’ve never been in any public toilets that I would describe as a “safe space”. The only reason I prefer segregated ladies toilets to unisex toilets is, let’s be honest, they tend to be cleaner :)

Its not a "safe space" it is a safer space as a semi-private space is without men. Separation of provision into either sex was in part about safe provision as men had the open urinal area
[(Edit) and women have to get half naked everytime they use a toilet ]

The term comes in part from trans ideology where some men need to have full access to womens toilets and spaces as these men need a safe space away from the violent men who use the mens room.

The safer space was designed into UK public toilets and still a factor in "third world" areas with no domestic plumbing. Having a clear social contract of no men ever allows the designers to create a man free buffer zone around the womens SSS eg access points to either sex will be designed as far away as possible rather than side by side.

A man hanging around the womens access point is a red flag for the police and community as a whole. The breach of the social contract begins as the man enters the public space buffer zone and before the man enters the toilet itself. Making the semi-private space a little safer.

But I agree removing men who spray urine onto the seat and lid of sanitary bin and the floor makes for a cleaner space.🤷‍♀️

RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie · 13/05/2025 21:32

Multiple people have called you out for being wrong - but I'm the arsehole? I'm frankly glad you're not engaging anymore. It's just a toilet. Really, it doesn't matter who uses it. That's all.

CombatBarbie · 13/05/2025 21:30

Brefugee · 12/05/2025 18:18

because men shouldn't be in the ladies.

Men need to get on at cafés etc to provide changing facilities that they can use. Or offer to use the table/seat in the corner, or if they can use the manager's office.

They need to be making it clear it is not acceptable for them to be told to use the ladies.

It's a single occupancy toilet not communial with stalls????? If I had to wait and saw a man coming out with a baby I wouldn't bat an eye.....

RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie · 13/05/2025 21:28

KatiMaus · 13/05/2025 21:03

Haha you're hilarious. I concede that my previous post was incorrect and clumsily written.

I suspect I'm not the first person to say this to you, but I don't want to engage with you anymore. Have a nice evening and try to work on your desire to be unpleasant to strangers on the internet who don't share your opinion.

There is something fundamentally wrong with you when you're unable to communicate without resorting to insults. Maybe you have had a hard time in life (bullied, perhaps?), maybe you're just an arsehole. Who knows?

I'm hilarious? Okay!

AnSolas · 13/05/2025 21:05

Finallydoingit24 · 13/05/2025 15:22

Also disabled people and women shouldn’t have had to campaign for facilities. They should have been given them - it should be common sense. To say that this is now the standard for being granted basic privileges is so shortsighted.

Wheelchair access with transfer bars etc have been the law since the 70s but baby changing units are still not covered under any act.

There is a changing spaces campaign which helped change the building regs obliging big venues to design and provide specific disability equipment
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/changing-places-toilets-for-severely-disabled-people-to-be-compulsory-in-new-public-buildings

Yet even the bog standard Able unit is still designed for a man as the toilet is centered in the space with no obligation to design in a bin space or add even an extra few cms to the stall.

illustration of a changing places toilet layout

Changing Places toilets for severely disabled people to be compulsory in new public buildings

Changes to building rules in England to help add larger accessible toilets to more than 150 buildings a year.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/changing-places-toilets-for-severely-disabled-people-to-be-compulsory-in-new-public-buildings

KatiMaus · 13/05/2025 21:03

RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie · 13/05/2025 18:20

No, I took your comment precisely as you wrote it. And from that, I said you were being silly. And now I think you've been even more silly. Go you.

Haha you're hilarious. I concede that my previous post was incorrect and clumsily written.

I suspect I'm not the first person to say this to you, but I don't want to engage with you anymore. Have a nice evening and try to work on your desire to be unpleasant to strangers on the internet who don't share your opinion.

There is something fundamentally wrong with you when you're unable to communicate without resorting to insults. Maybe you have had a hard time in life (bullied, perhaps?), maybe you're just an arsehole. Who knows?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 13/05/2025 20:58

BigFatLiar · 13/05/2025 20:50

Or just label them as toilets and and baby change to one as appropriate.

Since the OP has now said that the men's toilet isn't big enough for a changing table, I agree this would make more sense.