Do phalloplasties actually work?

I think in a few years there's going to be a LOT of lawsuits flying about.

I have seen this discussed at some length on the kiwi farms. The consensus (as much as there is ever consensus on KF) is that either:

A) these girls are so young and totally lacking in sexual experience that they have never seen or interacted with a real penis or

B) these girls have had such awful childhood experiences of penises that they believe that they are meant to be the size of two coke cans (phalloplasty creates huge flesh rolls which are later 'debulked' in other surgeries) because in the interactions they've had with penises, the penises were that scale to them.

Either of those possibilities being true is horrifying.

"there is no structured, tested or widely accepted baseline for transgender health care."

This really stood out to me from the Scott Newgent article. Why? WTF do we allow trans health care to be more risky, with less research and follow up than any other medical sector?

If Stonewall is serious about serving the T community, this would be a useful place to start.

I just read a bit of that reddit, and there were several similar, and similarly heartbreaking stories.

In the past ten years, so many vulnerable teens and children were sold an absolute load of horseshit about how meds and surgery would 'fix dysphoria', based on a total paucity of evidence and a total lack of questioning that was the foundation of 'affirming' healthcare.

Of those who have gone onto a path to 'transition', the majority have been made sterile, and many will have lifelong medical problems stemming from using cross sex hormones and cosmetic surgeries, and the complications of both.

I sincerely hope that most of them don't desist, because the thought of that reddit board being filled with hundreds of similar stories is just unconscionable.

One of the things you learn from getting old is that once you've messed up a body part, it's never really going to be 100% again.

All our aching old injuries and scars and, oh yeah that wrist doesn't bend any more, I can't drink alcohol any more... Maybe you need to be young (and v naive) to believe that you can have major surgery like that and still feel ok afterwards.

And how little do you need to understand of anatomy to think that a lump of arm flesh is essentially the same as a penis? The mind boggles... Oh, don't worry about your liver failure, Mrs Brown, we'll just plumb one of your kidneys in there instead, an organ is an organ right?

*Ah, and sorry about "sex reassignment surgery". I used it out of habit. Is "gender-affirming surgery" better?

Isn’t ‘gender affirming surgery’ what the likes of Katie Price have? To match their female body to the harmful sexist stereotypes pushed by society (aka ‘gender’)

A more accurate term for these trans surgeries is ‘extreme body modification’.

I know - it’s horrific when you start getting it all out to examine thoroughly. See also @ArabellaScott s post - my heart is breaking for these girls.

I remember being that age and my pure black and white thinking. I was happy to dismiss future consequences in my pursuit of what I wanted NOW. I held very strong ideas about important things for years from a very young age.

My youthful self could not have predicted the shape of my current adult life and that is fine because thank the lord, I wasn’t offered a simple solution as to why I felt a bit out of place all the time, didn’t make friends very easily and tended to fixate on certain ideas.

I grew up and mostly grew out of those feelings and came to no harm but these girls who have taken action and permanently changed their bodies to ruin their health and fertility don’t have the luxury of growing up healthy. They are going to be devastated when they understand what they have done to themselves and everyone who facilitates or condones it should be utterly ashamed. They are not kind. They are quite the opposite.

We do have some idea of the impact on bra8n development in that we know it lowers IQ significantly.

Whataboutery

omg. The fallout for these kids is going to be unbelievable. I wish any of these flippant supporters of this barbarity that pop up on here could read and digest and understand what horrors they are condoning.

I agree with your reply here @JasmineAllen
BUT, for a person who is aligned with trans ideology the starting point is that they have been born into the wrong body. Therefore they have lost the correct body and the genital surgery (in their mind) is restoring what they have lost.

I'd say part of the reason they are putting up with it is that they believe the ideology, ie that they have been born into the wrong body. That there is a right body which can be achieved and which is rightfully theirs. That there is a definite goal or destination waiting for them if only they are willing to endure the journey after which they will achieve the prize.

Yes but I haven’t really learnt facts about phalloplasty direct from Mumsnetters it’s been through links to NHS websites and other providers and newspaper articles about individuals and their stories.

I’d never suggest anyone uses a discussion forum as a singular source of knowledge but it can be a helpful as a way to point yourself towards resources.

I wouldn’t suggest men wanting to learn about abortion looked solely at one thing either if it was me I’d look at a mix of sites that would explain to me the facts of medical and surgical abortion. Then what the criteria are for where I live and further afield. Sites that offer information and opinion and individual stories.

Then using the information available to me I’d form an opinion. In the old days you could take your opinions down to the pub and have a reasoned conversation with people. I miss those days.

Those of us in healthcare are concerned about anyone seeking surgery in order to correct what may be a psychologically driven issue because those internal dissatisfactions can persist despite surgical procedures https://bdd.iocdf.org/expert-opinions/cosmetic-treatments-and-bdd/…. “ do no harm” is a fairly crucial part of healthcare and we should have the research evidence to prove its value for any procedure that has the capacity to cause significant harm.

Yes, and it's exceptionally hard to get these funded on the NHS.

@Seethlaw
Ah, and sorry about "sex reassignment surgery". I used it out of habit. Is "gender-affirming surgery" better?

It is neither...

• You can't reassign sex - sex is immutable, you will always be what you were born.
• it is not gender-affirming as gender is a fluid societal concept - as you always remain your sex, so any action you take simply expands and redefines what it means in this society to be your gender - so a man who cuts his willy off - still has sex = man, so all he is doing is expanding the societal understanding of a man to being either a man with a willy or a man with a willy cut off the gender boundaries for man expand. At no point does it suddenly move him to being a woman in either gender or sex.

Thank you.

I can't speak for the OP, but to jump into a forum and ask those very personal questions which sit in the nexus of both mental and physical distress out of curiosity (no matter how well meaning) is (1) incredibly rude and purient, and (2) only going to give a limited sample. Support forums are for the people who use them not a resource for curious others.

If I were OP I'd be looking for links to research and wider data rather than individual stories, which is something Mumsnet has to date been good at finding.

Agree - but actually, the current wave of feminism should/does allow for ‘my body, my choice’, so if a [young] woman wants to have a completely reversible aesthetic procedure like lip filler or botox, then it’s not my place to judge.

The poster you replied to clearly doesn’t do nuance or understand that temporary/reversible [self-funded] aesthetics are not in the same ballpark as: permanent, complex, irreversible surgeries and skin grafts, needing life long medical intervention, on otherwise physically perfect/healthy vulnerable and autistic young women. Or maybe I’m wrong and they are totally equivalent?!!

.

What a silly comparison!

I would not be on a thread about the environment complaining about war in the Middle East, nor would I be discussing local traffic on a thread about classical music - context is all!

As it happens, yes, I disagree with all of those - the fact that you don't like how your body looks is not a reason to mutilate it - that is the outcome of a society / online communities / social media all fixated on concepts of what looks right - rather than accepting that we are all different and loving the variety.

I am married to a consultant plastic surgeon who is qualified in many areas of surgery, but will not do cosmetic work - she spends her time rebuilding people and giving them their lives back - not destroying them.

These discussions are words based - remove the rubbish being said / noise that tries to validate and the fundamental underlying it is clear to all - if someone has their body chopped up / altered despite it being a working and functional body, that is mutilation.

When it happens with society's approval, then we are in a broken society

When it happens to children it is child abuse

When it happens to the vulnerable (autistic / those with mental health issues / those who have been abused in the past) then it is a safeguarding issue

Let's be clear- there is no justification in operating on a physically healthy male or female - mutilating their body and stacking up future issues - all in pursuit of a lie that somehow this will allow them to change sex - which we know as a society, we know at a legal level, we know morally and ethically - is impossible.

It is the time for blunt and clear talking - there is never going to be a valid reason for this surgery - anyone performing it should be struck off as a minimum, but preferably be facing criminal charges under safeguarding / abuse legislation.

More and more I find myself wishing MN had given us a tear reaction 😥

No.

Using them to delay puberty is exactly what they are designed to do. You still go through puberty once you stop taking them.

But if instead of stopping them you go on to take cross sex hormones that is a different thing.

We have no idea the impact this has on brain development, yet.

"There is absolutely no need to endure extensive, mutilating operations as it doesn't affirm anything."

Heh. I had top surgery, and it did help a lot. Bottom surgery wouldn't work, though, because it would never give me what I want.

Wow - lot of projection going on in that post. Do you really think feminist women who raise concerns about the many ways the sexist concept of gender identity is harmful to women and children (and also men by the way) are going to be people who are on board with 23-year old having botox? Half of us don't even shave our legs for God's sake 😂

I think this is one you may need to educate yourself about.

Honestly I thought you were genuine at first and agreed you had a point, but the later posts have made it clear you don't care about those girls either, it's just the usual TRA "throw in anything that might work to delegitimise criticism of trans choices"