Should a Brain Surgeon be up at night with a baby doing night feeds ?

If a brain surgeon has decided to bring children into the world they should have been prepared to make whatever provision is necessary to ensure that their child is fed and cared for as appropriate and also that they are rested enough to do their job - so what's the problem - which part did they overlook or underestimate?

3-4 NIGHT shifts that should say

As the wife of a surgeon (not neuro but equally ‘life or death’) I can comment on some of this:

the surgeon presumably had a part in making the baby. They maybe should have put a plan in place for those obvious eventuality.

3-4 shifts in a row leads to far more sleep deprivation than a baby. The nhs is very comfortable with their drs being overworked and not well rested. Working time directives limit them to…72 hours a week. 72. Ridiculous.

people seem be assuming ‘surgeon’ means consultant with private clinic and therefore on 150k+. My husband was 27 when we had our first baby and qualified as a surgeon the same year. He was still in training so did not do private. I’m not a dr and my husbands back ground is very much working class.

We couldn’t afford it anyway but the idea that drs can just employ staff to do the parts of the lives that aren’t serving the Holy NHS is pretty depressing for the families. He wanted to care for his own babies.

The answer to this is better parental leave, shorter hours on operating days and better pay. Not making some poor breastfeeding mum take on all the childcare because ‘oh but he’s a surgeon’

I breastfed 3 kids past 18months including one who was up every 2 hours for a LONG time. My husband never suggested he shouldn’t ‘have to’ support me with this.

Air traffic controllers, lorry drivers and so on have rules about how long they can work and how often they take breaks. Not so for surgeons. Almost as if it’s the system that it is at fault here.

The last decade or so has seen doctors’ salary erode. During training (which can last for 15 years after medical school), the pay is not excessive (£70,0000) with no expenses reimbursed (medical license, college fees, portfolio, revalidation, exams and courses - all mandatory which is several thousand every year) plus all of the extra hours and shift work.

Then add in the fact that as a trainee you are moved around to different locations every year. You need to be in early as a surgeon - so few (to no) nurseries open early enough especially if you’re assigned to a hospital 1.5hr away.

When I was a trainee surgeon and had kids, I couldn’t easily afford a nanny - let alone a night nurse/nanny! After mat leave, I worked 80% which reduced the salary even more (because you lose a lot of the extra night/weekend pay). It was hugely stressful and a nightmare.

I agree - no neurosurgeon would call themselves a ‘brain surgeon’. Nor would their spouse. I think it’s a cover to protect OP/DH’s identity - and that the DH is in some sort of highly skilled profession where lives are at risk if they mess up. Pilot is a good call but it could be anything.

Either way, no, if you have a job where safety of other people is core, then no, you do not go into work exhausted because you’ve taken on doing the middle of the night feed. You take paternity leave or you rely on the mother of your child doing what women have done for millennia. You make it up to her when you are not on shift by taking day shifts so that she can sleep/bathe/get a break.

Have you read a different OP to me?

Is this question based on something that actually happened, in which case I would hope that the matter would be reported to the hospital by everyone with knowledge of it?

Or is OP justr trying to make a point that she is shattered with a new baby (which is entirely reasonable) and needs backup in a discussion with her partner, by invoking a fairly corny trope (I guess it was a toss-up between the brain surgeon and the airline pilot), thus unfortunately leading the discussion into hypotheticals about nannies?

Because it's not as if anyone's going to say "Of course, I am a brain surgeon and 4 hours sleep is luxury, I usually manage on 2!". (FWIW, I don't think any "brain surgeon" actually calls themselves a "brain surgeon".)

Why is op allowing her brain surgeon husband do the night feeds and then wave him off to operate on people's brains 🧠

Obviously not. Having a newborn is a horrific situation and you muddle through as best you can. But quite clearly if they do a job with a safety implication they do need their sleep, or some time off. Sadly you probably need the money they bring in.

No which is why people with more responsibility should get more money. If you’re a brain surgeon you can afford a nanny or for your wife to not work and if she’s a surgeon too you can afford night Nannies & intense childcare

That is true of anyone who drives to work

No

I would say absolutely not! Someone with a job that important needs to be as on the ball as they can be or they can literally kill someone

This is bonkers. You do realise an nhs neurosurgeon is paid on the same salary scale as all the other nhs consultants?

I think it totally depends on the person. They need to know their limits and call in sick if they’re not rested and unable to work safely. There are many families where both parents are critical workers who need sleep. They have children. You just have to manage and know when to call it.

What’s your actual question here? Are you the surgeon, or their partner, or the parent of a sick child? Hope you are doing ok.

Or paternity/parental leave.

car insurance for doctors and other shift workers is higher, as they are more likely to be in a car accident too due to sleep deprivation at the end of a shift. So the tired brain surgeon is possibly more of a risk driving than a tired other person

And yet when I told people that I didn’t want DH up in the night to our baby (many years ago) because he had a 1.5 hour drive to work every day I was told he should just learn to cope on less sleep! Someone falling asleep while driving on the M25 could kill multiple people, a tired brain surgeon could kill one person.

on the days that they work probably no, brain surgeon should not be up at night unless he can get a ‘top up sleep’
eg. 6-8am, on the days that they don’t work work- yes absolutely they should be up & helping. Since they have demanding job that pays very well I can imagine they should ensure a night nanny covers their shift ( if we want to be technical & fair).

then again there is a mom who is up every night with no help whatsoever expected to look after a human being(s) day time - their lives can be in danger if a mom is sleep deprived while eg. driving them places etc.

so I am not sure if you get the ‘right’ answer for that, imo no-one should be sleep deprived

Have you actually got a stake in this question or just trying to make a point about some jobs are Very Important and so the poor little man should not have to have his sleep disrupted to help with his kids?
Or that Brain Surgeons are a special class of Very Important Job who should have a Get Out of Jail Free card for parenting?

If someone cannot do their job effectively and their family will be carrying an unreasonable burden, that person needs to find a way to get them the support they need.

Why isn't this "brain surgeon" on maternity leave, with such a young baby?

It’s interesting how many people think it would be wrong for a neurosurgeon sleep deprived due to caring responsibilities to work, yet don’t seem to have any understanding of how the organisational structures within which they work will be contributing to fatigue:

Quote taken from the report posted a while back. “Fatigue arises from a number of personal and organisational factors, which can overlap. Organisational factors that contributed to staff fatigue included workload, long shifts, insufficient rest facilities and inadequate rest breaks during and between shifts. Personal factors that contributed to an increased risk of fatigue included caring responsibilities, menopause, pregnancy, religious practices and socioeconomic factors.”

Honestly, I appreciate this is a parenting forum so the focus is more on the impact of a baby on fatigue, but fatigue is such a wide ranging issue, with so many causes. The suggestion that a neurosurgeon with a baby will be fine if they have a nanny - even though the organisation they work within may be switching them between day and night shifts, sandwiching on call responsibilities during shifts, not giving them enough breaks - is bonkers. For example the report above reflects on the fact that there is often no compensatory rest for being called into the hospital whilst on call - so a consultant may work a day shift, immediately be on call over night where their sleep is repeatedly disturbed and they may well have to attend the hospital - and then immediately go into their next day shift. And if they make an error due to fatigue, they will most likely be held accountable. Would you get on a plane if that was a pilot? They drip, drip of patient harm is always there, but it doesn’t have the same impact as a smoking hole in the ground when a plane comes down.

Why specifically a brain surgeon? A train driver, a pilot, an ICU nurse among many others, all need adequate rest between shifts. Should people with responsible careers forgo having children?

I doubt it is in the financial remit of most people… but definitely affordable for a neurosurgeon. And it only needs to be temporary.