To just not really have my kids ‘ under control ‘ a lot of the time.. 3 and 5 years old

Ah OP your posts bring back so many memories for me!! Mine are 14, 15 and 17 now but I remember those times of running after them and feeling like I was trying to control out of control animals.
You sound like a great mother and I did get a laugh at what your 5 year old said about not hearing you!
I remember my boys wrestling in the aisles of the supermarkets, they were so caught up in having fun that they didnt see it wasnt appropriate.

I had to be strict in those situations (I did at times leave the shopping there and go home, or walk out of restaurants or play areas if they wouldnt behave). If you follow through on these punishments they will eventually get the message.

I also made sure they had places we could go where they could run wild and get their energy out - the woods, parks etc.

You just have to keep reiterating that in certain situations they have to control their behaviour because it impacts on others eg running and messing about in public places. Try to remain calm and firm.

My boys on their own were so easy but when they were out together, the wildness started. I do think that having them so close in age does make it more difficult to control them. It will get easier as they get older and they understand more. Hang in there.

Two close in age def get each other going. Mine are twins and it was chaotic under 5.

This is so naive. It all worked so well on my dd and I too was the smug parent. I tried all the same things with ds and it fails utterly.

Obviously I'm not going to deny that children mature with age - but I think parents are too quick to write off their own improvements. Do you think that in the last 2 years of parenting, you haven't gotten any better at it?

I think it is inevitable that if we do anything with care and attention, we will improve over time and become more efficient etc. I'm sure some of your 5 year old's progress is down to you, and subtle improvements in your ability to parent.

After all, there are plenty of 5 year olds who are still very badly behaved despite being 5, and there are plenty of parents who come here to post for help, saying that their child's behavior has gotten worse as they age from 2-5, so it certainly isn't a given that at this age, older = better behaved.

I know what you mean about the power struggle though - it can be exhausting. I remember an educator presenting the idea of having minimal but absolutely strict rules as a solution to that. The idea being that you try and whittle down your red-lines to the smallest amount that will reach the standard of behavior you require. Those rules are then enforced 100% of the time without exception. Everything else though, is more free and doesn't come with punishment/consequences/discipline.

Doing so is hard though, especially if other people aren't keeping your consistent rules. How are the other responsible adults in your kid's lives? Grandparents? Teachers etc.? It can be really hard to solve these problems if you are being consistent and strict for 7 weeks, but during that time another influence is giving in to them.

https://www.peacefulparenthappykids.com/read/How-get-kid-listen

Isn't dramatic. What's dramatic is the two little kids sprinting away from their screaming mother into the road.

I said that when people say children are "spiritied" they're often unruly, destructive and spiteful children excused by their permissive parents.

Actually I think this is nonsense. She isn't vulnerable and doesn't think her kids are badly behaved. I think many of us are at the end of our tether with parents and kids like this.

Why do you obey the law OP? Because there are consequences if you don't? The consequences never change, the legal system doesn't care how you feel about it. The law is consistent and reinforced consistently, that's the idea anyway. Your kids probably don't listen to you, because they couldn't care less about your authority. How can you expect them to grow up to be law abiding citzens, if you don't show them the consequences of ignoring authority? Every time you shout, or punish, or do whatever to lay the law down, you are teaching them to be respectful in society. If you do it consistently for long enough, they'll stop pushing the boundaries and listen to you. Assuming there isn't a medical reason for this not to work.

I don’t think you can judge any child as spiteful based on their behaviour towards a newborn or a pregnant mother. It’s a massive change. For all my DS can be stubborn, he isn’t mean, but he was two and a half when I had his sister and he certainly tried to pinch her and slap her on a few occasions (obviously didn’t let him.)

That isn’t spite, it’s a way of communicating a huge change.

Is your 5yo NT ? 5 seems very late be having to hold your hand. Mine both had basic road sense by 2.5-3, just running off with no sense of danger is morectoddler behaviour IME.

Parents need to parent and not be their child's BFF

Reminds me of Muffin Heeler from Bluey.

I think the problem that a lot of parents face is that it takes a long time to build up good authority and behavior management. It can't be fixed by a simple quick change of approach or new thing to say, or new punishment.

It is the same with teaching. Every class is different, just like every child. Some are easy (Lucky!) and some are challenging. But all can and need to be dealt with. Teachers who struggle with badly behaved classes often come and ask teachers with controlled classes what they should do, expecting a trick that will solve it. But the reality is that the teachers who can manage behavior do it form day 1. They build up that atmosphere and culture, and then after that its easy to manage small issues as they arise.

As for how - my personal approach, and the one I have seen work well both in parenting and education is that you have to have a balance of a high level of both discipline and consequences, but also warmth and giving.

A child or a student quickly learns that with someone like this, if they are out of line it is bad... but if they stay in line, they are given respect, fun times, nice things, and treated really well.

If you do too much of the warmth, and not enough discipline = you get spoiled children who don't respect their parents. The result is parents who dislike spending time with their children because they are out of control.

If you do too much of the discipline and consequences = you get scared and timid children who fear their parents. The result is children who dislike spending time with their parents because they are too harsh.

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Any family can shift and re-address the balance, but the results take months or years to show. So you need to be patient. A lot of parents say "My kid just grew out of it or got better". I personally believe that they are missing their own contribution, and what often happens is that they gradually improved their approach, slowly got better at dealing with their child, not that their child just grew up and became nice.

Which one is the parent???

You're letting them run rings round you. And that's down to you, not the child.

Slight left-field but I would just have a think about their diet to make sure it isn’t full of E numbers, sugar and UPFs, all of which can have an impact on mood and behaviour.

I agree with this. Though I think so many parents behave the opposite that being firm with your children is now seen as being unnecessarily harsh. A couple of times recently Ive been reminding my son of a boundary (mostly to do with safety on the street but also about the way he was speaking to me) and passers-by have stopped and watched as if ready to intervene! I hadn’t been shouting or being physical in any way, just asking him to put his toy in his pocket so he doesn’t bump into people or cross the street without looking (he’s much older than a toddler btw).

I had one just like this, OP! The judgy looks I got, smug helpful comments (that were usually just "be consistent"), fewer social invitations. I thought I was trying hard with parenting, and following the rules etc.

Then I had another, who does listen and generally follow the rules. Revelation! Children are different. Sadly older winds up younger a lot of the time, so still chaos - but they're in primary school now and on the whole life is much calmer.

You sound like you're doing a great job, and I see all the work you're putting in from your posts

All children are different. I know this to be true because I have given birth to two of the most different children imaginable. Same parents scrambling their DNA. Same circumstances. Two very different humans.

First child is polite, attentive and rule-abiding, almost to a fault. I had a good few years of smugly imagining I was nailing parenting. Until... Second child comes along and HUMBLES ME with his wild ways. Suddenly, I'm the mum at the school gate surrounded by shrieking and chaos and impromptu re-enactments of dinosaur fights.

It's actually very challenging to parent them both in the same household, as they need such different things from us. First child needs freedom and gentle encouragement, second needs super strict boundaries and clear consequences for overstepping them. I need a lie down.

Which is to say: I don't have any easy answers, but if you're having a decent go at parenting (which it sounds like you certainly are!), the chaos that surrounds you might just be your lot in life for now and doesn't necessarily reflect poorly on you. The calm, obedient kids might just be naturally quieter, calmer personalities.

And one other thing - the "well behaved" kids you see around the place might just be having a good day. I had to take both kids to a medical appointment for my youngest after school recently, and I looked like Mother Of The Bloody Year. They were both polite, responsive and sweet. Eldest sat and read to himself, while youngest charmed the hell out of the nurse, and I glided around the place on a cloud of smug. Half an hour earlier, youngest was refusing to walk properly out of the playground and insisting on running back and forth at "Cheetah Speed", getting in everyone's way at pickup. Back at home two hours later, I can't hear myself think over their hollering, and enter the sitting room to find a huge mess and youngest with his bum out pretending to be a baboon. But for that blissful 30 minute appointment, anyone who saw us would've wondered which parenting manuals I was reading and where they could get a copy.

Just coming on to say that I have a child who, at least since she was 3, has usually been very well behaved in public. And it's absolutely not because I'm a great parent, it's because that's her nature - she hates being stared at, or standing out. As one pp said, they have to parent far harder than I do (on this issue at least). I just wanted to say you're not a failure; you've simply got it tough.

Not relevant to the OP’s children but I hate to say my friends DD definitely showed signs of spite at age 3. One particular incident I remember she had my sunglasses and was playing with them and bending them a little and I asked for them back, clearly telling her that bending would break them. She looked me dead in the eye, bent them right back, snapped them in half and laughed in my face. I was gobsmacked. Another time I was with my young DD in the park and friends DD was spinning her around on a spinner seat thing and I said not too fast because she’ll be sick, and she said to me “I want her to be sick”

To be fair she’s actually grown into a sweet older girl now, and I’m not a psychologist but there was more than a few occasions at 3yo that she appeared spiteful

Sorry I know that’s not really relevant to OP’s post - I absolutely do not think your children are spiteful OP and sympathise massively with your situation. I only have one and they’re bloody hard work!

This sounds kinda like my normal.

I've lost count of the times people have said to me 'they're a handful'!

My two are 2 and 5 and it's like having two crazy puppies. In the supermarket I put one in the trolley and my 5 year old does follow us around at least because he doesn't like to be separated.

Some days all I feel I do is nag at them but I know this is age related / they have tons of energy / them bouncing off each other.

I just expect life to be what I'd call 'messy' at this stage and age & I just try to focus on bad behaviour rather than general crazy. Although it does frazzle and test you doesn't it.

This is what I would have said, my two boys of a similar age are exactly the same at home. Luckily not so bad out and about but more so on the school run where they feel quite secure. I don’t think you have done anything wrong, or anything is wrong with them. They are lively, young kids. It is what it is. They will be ok. The strategies suggested above are what I would go with. Like I said, mine are better in public so we go out lots and I do have a ‘I really mean this mode’ where I will be very stern in public and stop whatever is happening and call them out on whatever is going on. However at home it’s a different picture. They get super hyped up where their reasonable mind has just left the building and they are just very loud and silly. Usually we go outside, have a bath or I wait til they pass through the other side into tears mode. Not recommending as best practice 😂😭