Children should be seen and not heard

Perhaps this is down to the way far too many kids behave these days.
Two incidents I have witnessed from this past week alone.
I was in the local shop and 3 boys came in (about 9 or 10) with a Bluetooth speaker blasting loud swearing music. No adults with them. Shouting and screaming running down the aisle. They threw sweets on the floor and at each other. The manager approached them and told them to leave to which the younger one started screaming that she hit him. The shop was busy so plenty of witnesses to dispute this as well as cctv.

Earlier in the week I was out dog training in a group. Kids about the same age on bikes circling us barking at the dogs. They were asked to move on which they did only to return with biscuits a few minutes later and started throwing them at us. In the end we moved on.

There is no way we would have behaved like that when we were young. There is no way we would have spoken back to adults let alone throwing stuff at them.

The ‘children should be seen and not heard’ thing never really went away.
Even though we don’t raise children that way anymore (thank goodness) many who were raised that way are now older and are very triggered by children who aren’t. They weren’t allowed to ‘shriek’ in the garden. They weren’t allowed to be noisy and messy and have normal kid emotions so they think that when kids do behave that way they have been parented badly and are ‘entitled’. They can’t handle it as they are conditioned to believe that is how children ‘should’ behave.

It’s also a peculiarly British thing with very strong historical roots. (A bit like the old saying ‘do as I say not as I do’ 🙄 ) It’s deeply ingrained in our psyche and those of us who are breaking the patterns are frowned upon (as is the case when people break norms). If you go to parts of S Europe especially Spain and Italy you will see that they aren’t triggered by children being noisy in the way older Brits are. They don’t flinch when a child has a meltdown in a restaurant. They don’t judge the parents. They just see it as a normal part of childhood and are generally very affectionate towards children.

I was a child of the 60’s and 70’s and although we had far more freedom than kids of today, it wasn’t a case of children should be seen but not heard. We could play, sometimes noisily but we were raised to have consideration to others.If you annoyed someone with your noise,you apologised. Today, if you complain about other peoples noise you get abuse. This doesn’t relate only to children. The majority of the time it’s grown adults behaving badly. Not a good role model to children.

Hell is other people. And other people's children.

@BogRollBOGOF whenever my parents went out for family meals the vast majority of the places had play equipment as you say & this is still very normal in Europe.

The issue is lazy and entitled parents who raise kids who are equally entitled and are not taught how to behave in public and lack basic manners.

My theory is that entertainment is more "lively" and shouty than in previous generations, even on content like CBeebies, which makes it a normalised way of communicating. The worst culprit is YouTube with lots of shrieking on videos.

20, 15, 10 years ago it was not a regular behaviour in my youth group. Since 2020, we regularly have to remind the children that shrieking and screaming is not appropriate. Most weeks. Often several times a night.

The timing co-incides with increased use of tablets and internet based entertainment and introduction at a younger age. Our current cohort were toddlers/ pre-schoolers during the lockdowns.

That mindless shrieking was not a thing a generation ago.

That's a load of crap.

The problem isn't kids... it is their entitled parents.
Kids want to make noise and play. Some parents think a Costa is the right place for that.
The vast majority of parents do a grand job and would never dream of inflicting their kids on people who are not interested. But some do, and they stand out like a sore thumb.

There are fewer spaces/ opportunities for children to let off steam without being a bother to the general public.

Lots of pubs/ family restaurants had decent outdoor play areas in the 80s/ 90s and most have gone. I didn't often have to quietly entertain myself with a book and colouring for the full duration when I was a child. Running laps around the dining area would not have been tolerated, and there was appropriate space allocated for children to safely burn energy off. Win, win.

There are now more parents who tolerate their children making excessive noise for the setting and don't consider the impact on people in the surrounding area, whether it's the child themself or their device blaring out. There are also more parents who object to critique about their parenting/ child's behaviour.

I was recently in a hospital waiting room and it was refreshing when a mum got some picture books off the rack and was reading them at a gentle, conversational volume to her young child and chatting with her.

Why is seeing a child on ipad shit for me though? I was in pizza express yesterday & it didn't bother me or alter my experience what other families did. I don't think parents putting their own wants & needs first occasionally is a bad thing.

Exactly.

That mindless shrieking was not a thing a generation ago.

Get a grip!

Don’t agree at all . I’m from the generation where kids were seen and not heard . My grandkids get full time attention from their parents non stop . No screens either . They also get full time attention from us the grandparents. They run around the house and scream sometimes but that I find so annoying. That’s a learnt behaviour. I think they get so mollycoddled and they can’t actually entertain themselves.

@MAFSsaddict I think young children are intrinsically pretty kind.

Yes it's wrong. You're pushing kids to be in an environment which is frankly shit for them and everyone else around you, because your desire to have a meal out comes before anything and anyone else, your own children included.

Or perhaps we all just admit that kids have screens pushed in front of them so the parents can have an easy life for an hour, and because the kids have been trained to associate meals out with screens.

Is that so wrong though? Is it a new thing that parents have sometimes wanted an easy life for an hour?

Don’t agree at all! Or maybe it’s the area I live near (quite privileged) but kid’s lives are elevated here. Many are allowed to run around restaurants, supermarkets etc. Thats not ‘seen but not heard’. What I am seeing is generally a lack of empathy and kindness and with it more of a sense of entitlement and that’s completely on the parents. I am an older parent and our DC is raised to be thoughtful, kind and resilient, I know I will get flamed for this as I know it’s not an age thing but manners were huge in my day and I had quite left wing parents who worked in a deprived area and gave back a lot so maybe that’s why it’s rubbed off on me. What I find is often this is not reciprocated, which means DC often loses out. I just want parents to raise their kids to think of others, especially in the current climate. I don’t care if the kids are noisy in the process or messy or chaotic. Those children who are thoughtful or curious, or even just interested in others outside of their immediate circle therefore really stand out to me these days. Our DC is not academic but tries so hard and will share anything. This stuff is more important to us tbh.

I think its a toxic combination of gentle parenting meaning children are denied very clear rules and boundaries, never hear the word no and are never expected to moderate their behaviour in a way appropriate to their environment.

And add into that the massive change in how people live. If your kids are so exhausted after a day of entirely structured activities, perhaps dragging them to a restaurant because you want to go isn't actually in their best interests, and really you should go home so they can chill in their own comfortable environment. Or perhaps we all just admit that kids have screens pushed in front of them so the parents can have an easy life for an hour, and because the kids have been trained to associate meals out with screens.

I don't dislike children. I dislike poorly behaved children, and ineffective parents. The number of both is much much greater than even 10 years ago.

I do wonder if we suddenly became more intolerant of kids, or if we always were, but because there was no internet and social media, it wasn’t known as a general consensus. I have very vivid memories of me and my cousins roaming around from dusk till dawn with no access to phone at the age of 6. I mean that’s unthinkable now for parents to be ok with their young DC out not knowing where they are.

I genuinely feel sorry for kids, in the park, at home and in the garden let them play. However I just been out for dinner and family were letting their 6-9 year old race around the table. We moved our table before we sat down as if out for dinner, I don’t want to have kids racing around me. This wasn’t a family scenario and I wasn’t impressed.

Thank you for saying this. My toddler often gets to watch a cartoon during a meal in a restaurant, especially if the food is slow to come out and ultimately this is for the other diner's benefit. Before hand we'll talk, colour in, do sticker books, play with toys but after a while they've had enough and want out of their high chair. When this happens they may start shouting, throwing things, kicking the table etc. Rather than disrupting other diners, we choose to let them watch some cartoons with barely any sound on which leads to peace and quiet until the end of the meal. I've had some looks for doing this in the past, but they're only seeing a tiny snapshot of our lives and judging us as though we do this everyday at home. We don't, and I'm sure those who judge would be far more displeased if we chose to allow our toddler to continue to shout, squeal and throw things.

You sound lovely.

Kids don’t intentionally want to make peoples live a misery.

You sound as if you’d find misery in an empty room though.

Problem is parents don’t want to parent any more!

I think parents are expected to parent far more now vs the past!

Although I agree with all posts about making restaurants child friendly, offering colouring etc, love the sound of families having fun, we’re at the restaurant to be with our own family/group. My children wouldn’t want a random child coming up to our table to talk to them and i’d be looking over to see who the parents were. We would say hi but would then expect the parents to actually parent and supervise their own child. To me, that just sounds like palming your child off on another family.

Restaurants can be fun and child friendly but my children wouldn’t interrupt another families meal out.