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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not want to 'celebrate' VE

236 replies

Ramblethroughthebrambles · 05/05/2025 17:33

I've been asked to take part in VE celebrations this week. I've politely declined. It feels OK to me to join in a solemn commemoration, with a focus on how to make sure this never happens again, but not a celebration of victory which all the UK events seem to be. I'm grateful for the sacrifices so many soldiers and others made and that we didn't become part of the Nazi empire. I completely get why people originally celebrated the end of such an awful war and its hardships. But celebrating military victory 80 years on doesn't sit right with me, especially given the conflicts in the world today. It seems to normalise military intervention and sends the message that military victory is a 'good thing' when often it's a result of failures in international diplomacy/ strategy / long term thinking. I'm not a complete pacifist and recognise there are times when military intervention is a necessary evil. But that doesn't make me want to celebrate it.

I never hear anyone else expressing this view in public. There seems to be an expectation that we'll all want to get the bunting out and have a tea party. So AIBU?

OP posts:
Ponoka7 · 06/05/2025 16:10

@MissyGirlie for who in the 1930's improved for? The WC were still dying in droves from malnutrition and slum housing. Eugenics was still the norm (until the 70's), then there was the removal of babies from unmarried women and the use of asylums etc. Child migration to Australia didn't end until 1970. Many people were still considered undesirable and disposable. We'll just ignore the Bengal famine, the Biafran crisis and many other events. Re the Dutch I meant to say SA and add in the Belgiums. You can't really pick between any of the Wealthy men wanting power when it comes to the more evil.

Ramblethroughthebrambles · 06/05/2025 13:19

Jewishbookworm · 05/05/2025 20:30

There are specific days (not just one, multiple) where we commemorate the Shoah. One was just last week.

Of course, its tinged with sadness either way - but say what you want about the allies not bombing the train tracks, at least they did fight against Hitler.

I think WW2 was very different to other wars in that sense, in that truly the world was fighting against pure evil. Also civilians were really part of the war, the bombings, evacuation, being involved in war work, being called up, rationing...there was huge civilan loss of life.

Thanks - that's a helpful reminder of what was unique about WW2 and why commemoration and gratitude are important to so many people. I just wish we could do this without the celebratory angle.

OP posts:
Ramblethroughthebrambles · 06/05/2025 13:03

Thanks for your thoughtful posts @MarkingBad

"You do as you please but please let others choose to commemorate, celebrate, or ignore as they wish.". Yes, that's generally my approach, but it becomes difficult when community events are organized and there is an expectation that everyone wants to mark WW2 in the same way. If there was less of the celebratory element perhaps more people would feel able to join in.

OP posts:
hairbearbunches · 06/05/2025 11:48

OneAmusedShark · 06/05/2025 10:59

“Even look at the difference between the ways in which the end of WWI and WW2 are marked in the UK. One is very much a ‘commemoration’, the other a ‘celebration’”

I think that’s because WW1 was a war that should never have happened, between two groups of very similar countries, that happened because a load of alliances just kicked in and the whole thing exploded, costing millions of lives for nothing. That is something to be mourned and remembered.

WW2 was about stopping an evil genocidal
maniac from taking over the world. That really is something to be celebrated.

Arguably, WW1 led to WW2. The Treaty of Versailles was far too onerous on Germany, the punishment was too great and it allowed grievance to take hold and fester, particularly after the wall street crash. There are no winners in war, but when winners rubs losers faces in the dirt, the long term consequences are not peace.

MissyGirlie · 06/05/2025 11:32

Ponoka7 · 06/05/2025 09:04

How does it compare to what the British did across the Commonwealth and to the First Nation people of the USA? Have you watched the films set in NZ, the nightingale, Van Diemen's Land etc. Or the Dutch in the Congo etc? Or how we allowed the poor, indentured servants, children, the disabled etc to be transported, experimented on and worked/starved to death? The great Irish Famine? The Armenian genocide? How does it compare to the dying rooms that were in operation on China not so long ago? Or the treatment by the Japanese, the torture, Unit 731? Or what happens today across Africa and the ME? The rich are terrified of communism, the religious leaders are terrified of secularism. There's a massive agenda to why the Russians have been so demonised.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, other that every country does bad stuff sometimes. I'm not debating the fact that the European (and other) empires did awful things, particularly pre-1900. But by 1930, the boundaries of what was considered acceptable by democratic western populations had changed enormously.

And it was the Belgians in the Congo, not the Dutch. And they were truly dreadful, but even there, by 1930, things had improved enormously.

By the late1930s, Britain was just starting to consider the eventual independence of many constituent countries of the British Empire. And rule in many parts of that Empire relied on a large degree of co-option and consent. Also by the 1930s, within Britain there were restrictions on the hours that could be worked and so on. We had universal suffrage. We didn't have vast prison camps housing political dissidents or various types of people considered undesirable.

And I most definitely do not need educating about what the Japanese got up before and during World War II: I grew up on those stories, because they resulted in the deaths of several of my relatives, and the torture and starvation of many others.

The issue with Stalin's Russia was multi-faceted:

  1. There was an agreement during World War II that the Allies would not take the opportunity for territorial aggrandisement. This meant that even when you had a population within a state that been linked to the Axis, that was actually quite keen to become, at least for a time, a part of the British Empire (as a route to eventual independence), like the Malays in southern Thailand, this had to be refused. Stalin, however, used WWII to wipe out the political opposition in the countries in the Soviet-controlled zone in Eastern Europe and instal puppet governments, essentially turning those countries into client states. Take a look at what happened to Imre Nagy.
  2. Russia was not (and never has been) a democracy. Under Stalin, it was a brutally repressive state, and ordinary Russians arguably had less freedom to criticise their own government than did subjects of the British Empire. People could be sent to labour camps for extremely long terms for relatively minor infractions (or none).
  3. Stalin treated his POWs and surrendered enemy personnel appallingly. The vast, vast majority of German POWs in British hands were safely home by early 1948. Over a third of the 3 million German soldiers who fell into Soviet hand, most of them in the final year of the war, did not make it home - even the NKVD admitted that about 14% died in their hands.

The reason that many people are deeply suspicious of communism is that wherever it is tried, it leads to political repression. Russian, Cuba, China, North Korea... Awful stuff happens under many other governments (theocracies and monarchies in particular), but it doesn't seem to be quite as inevitable as it is under communism.

The fact that the Russians also celebrate VE Day doesn't stop me doing so, though for the reasons given above, VJ Day is more significant to me.

MerlinsBeard1 · 06/05/2025 11:00

I see the anti-british rhetoric is alive and kicking. How vile.

OneAmusedShark · 06/05/2025 10:59

“Even look at the difference between the ways in which the end of WWI and WW2 are marked in the UK. One is very much a ‘commemoration’, the other a ‘celebration’”

I think that’s because WW1 was a war that should never have happened, between two groups of very similar countries, that happened because a load of alliances just kicked in and the whole thing exploded, costing millions of lives for nothing. That is something to be mourned and remembered.

WW2 was about stopping an evil genocidal
maniac from taking over the world. That really is something to be celebrated.

Dangermoo · 06/05/2025 10:44

Bridestone · 06/05/2025 09:48

Of course how events are marked or commemorated is inevitably subject to change over time — as veterans die off, as those events are differently understood, according to who precisely is doing the marking, as the country doing the commemorating changes etc etc.

Even look at the difference between the ways in which the end of WWI and WW2 are marked in the UK. One is very much a ‘commemoration’, the other a ‘celebration’.

...But it's very essence and poignancy remain the same. I take your point about new generations, although I'd like to think the outcome of WW2 paved and shaped the way for those generations.

TeenToTwenties · 06/05/2025 10:42

@GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER He died at only 72 so a whole sixth of his life was spent in fighting WW2 with the RN.

Not as bad as you think. 6 years fighting from a life of 72 years is only 1/12th not 1/6th. But a massive thing to have done.

OneAmusedShark · 06/05/2025 10:35

Well, given that we live in a free country, you have every right not to celebrate the victory of the allies in WW2.

People fought and died for your right not to celebrate something that you don’t want to celebrate, so I don’t criticise you for that.

It’s like voting. The hard-fought right to
vote also includes the right not to vote.

If you didn’t have the right not to celebrate, then it wouldn’t be a free country.

As someone who had relatives who fought and died in both wars, and knowing what the alternative would have been if the Nazis had won (think gas chambers for all BAME, disabled, gay and people who disagree with the government) I’m shouting my thanks from the rooftops and flying the flags of all the countries that helped rid the world of that evil nutter who made Trump look like
the Dali Llama!

I think we need to teach our children about the Commonwealth soldiers from Africa, Asia (including many many Muslims) and the Caribbean who also fought and died for our freedom. It might make people less racist if they knew their shared history!

GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER · 06/05/2025 10:10

Octaviathethird · 05/05/2025 17:52

I totally agree with you OP, anything that glorifies war makes me very uncomfortable. My DD will have to take part in something at school but I don't feel able to say I disagree because it's not acceptable to not take part, same with remembrance Sunday.

It’s not ‘glorifying war’ FFS. It’s marking the end of years of so much fighting, suffering and millions of deaths, at least in Europe. The war with Japan was still going on - my DF was just one of so many who came home only months later.
He died at only 72 so a whole sixth of his life was spent in fighting WW2 with the RN.

Only a very few of his final year at school ever came home - many of those very young men had gone into the RAF as aircrew - the death rate was horrendous.

Floatlikeafeather2 · 06/05/2025 10:06

Lilyhatesjaz · 05/05/2025 17:43

I am totally with you op.
When remembrance Sunday started to be called poppy day I felt we had lost the true meaning and purpose.

Remembrance Day has evolved, that's all that has happened. Few families now have direct ties with the people being remembered but there are still plenty of people who have loved ones in the military or who are ex-military who are being helped directly by money raised by the British Legion, via Poppy Day. I'm not sure when you think the name changed but it has been known as Poppy Day throughout my life and I'm 69. Remembrance Sunday is when the church services and parades are held, even now but Poppy Day is Armistice Day, which is and always has been 11th November.

Mydadsbirthday · 06/05/2025 10:05

I agree with you OP. I think 80 years on it has taken on a different meaning.

Ukisgaslit · 06/05/2025 10:00

The German relatives of the Windsors helped Hitler gain and keep power . That bit is kept quiet . The Marburg papers were kept secret from the very people who fought and the general population

Britain would have lost to Germany were it not for the intervention of Russia and the US .
Soon afterwards Russia was the enemy.

The people are pawns in power games
VE Day and similar are now used to bolster a false memory .

Ukisgaslit · 06/05/2025 09:54

VE / VJ could easily have been used to remind us of the horror of war.
It isn’t .
Why else do the royals dress up in unearned medals ?
VE day is increasingly jingoistic - the reasons are complex but I alluded to them above

TeenToTwenties · 06/05/2025 09:52

Ukisgaslit · 06/05/2025 09:50

Peace

Great.
What day would you celebrate 'Peace Day'? How would you do it?

(As far as I am concerned VE 80 includes celebrating 80 years of western Europe peace).

Ukisgaslit · 06/05/2025 09:50

TeenToTwenties · 06/05/2025 09:45

For the people who don't want to celebrate VE 80, I have a question.

What do you think we should celebrate on a national level?

Celebrations have the ability to bring community and country together. Otherwise we are just a bunch of people living on an island together.
Not everyone wants to celebrate everything but it does seem unnecessary to rain on other people's parades.

Peace

ArminTamzerian · 06/05/2025 09:48

Impostersyndicate · 05/05/2025 17:41

Well don't take part then. But it's very weird that you don't see the end of world war 2 as an event we should commemorate and celebrate.

VE day wasn't the end of WW2

Bridestone · 06/05/2025 09:48

Dangermoo · 06/05/2025 08:41

It is and always will be a significant mark in history. Its origins won't ever change so why would how it's marked be subject to change? This thread is another example of twisting and turning something just for the sake of it AKA virtue signalling. Acknowledge or celebrate it or don't.

Of course how events are marked or commemorated is inevitably subject to change over time — as veterans die off, as those events are differently understood, according to who precisely is doing the marking, as the country doing the commemorating changes etc etc.

Even look at the difference between the ways in which the end of WWI and WW2 are marked in the UK. One is very much a ‘commemoration’, the other a ‘celebration’.

Darksideofmercury · 06/05/2025 09:47

Ukisgaslit · 06/05/2025 09:28

So you admit it’s a celebration ?
I thought so
Hence the jingoistic overtones

The crowds were sparse - whether that is lack of interest in the Windsors or the event or both who knows

Sparse?? Don't be so ridiculous

TeenToTwenties · 06/05/2025 09:45

For the people who don't want to celebrate VE 80, I have a question.

What do you think we should celebrate on a national level?

Celebrations have the ability to bring community and country together. Otherwise we are just a bunch of people living on an island together.
Not everyone wants to celebrate everything but it does seem unnecessary to rain on other people's parades.

Dangermoo · 06/05/2025 09:35

Ukisgaslit · 06/05/2025 09:28

So you admit it’s a celebration ?
I thought so
Hence the jingoistic overtones

The crowds were sparse - whether that is lack of interest in the Windsors or the event or both who knows

It doesn't matter what it's referred to, its significance remains. Why bring the mood down anyway in having a problem with the celebration of how things could have been different? It's all negative. As for those referring to some veterans who don't want to celebrate it, that is understandable. That doesn't stop surviving relatives etc wanting to buoy up the event. This all comes down to another excuse to piss on the parade, the same as threads that come out at remembrance.

Serpentstooth · 06/05/2025 09:34

Sparse? Are you Bigly? Not a sparse crowd.

Ukisgaslit · 06/05/2025 09:28

So you admit it’s a celebration ?
I thought so
Hence the jingoistic overtones

The crowds were sparse - whether that is lack of interest in the Windsors or the event or both who knows

Dangermoo · 06/05/2025 09:21

Bingo card so far: bunting, trifle, jingoism, colonalism, the Royals, other wars going on.

The hate for anything the UK celebrates, continues. Miseries.

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