To want Brexit be reversed

‘Proportionate’ is a word imported from European jurisprudence. Its whole purpose is to allow judges subjective judgment as widely as possible.

One example of anger is the letter you’ve quoted!

I voted to remain, so i would absolutely love it if Brexit could be reversed. The UK has burned a lot of bridges and I would be surprised if Britain was welcomed back. The UK seems to be leaning quite a lot more to the right than I've seen in my adult years, it's depressing.

Proportionate is a weasel word only if you are interpreting that way.

Literally it means, stick to the rules. Don’t under enforce them or over enforce.

The EU is a technical, unemotional, rules-based organisation, as it is only through rules that twenty-seven countries with twenty-four different languages can find consensus. By discussing, refining, voting on, and agreeing to legislation, is how they maintain unity.

If anything the EU were remarkably tolerant with the UK wanting to leave, especially given some of the antics of the UK government at the time. I simply don’t recognise your comment that they displayed anger? I would be interested in any examples you can provide? They were very disappointed, and at times sorrowful that we were leaving, but enforcing agreed rules without allowing exceptions is not tantamount to anger. It’s about sticking to agreed rules.

Life here is civilised. I’m glad people are happy where they are of course. People don’t always have the same preferences when it comes to enjoying where they live.

Surely that depends on various factors. Where you live in either country for example, the job someone has.

Actually it depends on all of the state provisions that makes life civilised and provides greater equality, such as; subsidised public transport, maintenance of public spaces, libraries, proper social care, good health care provided through non-profit obligatory health insurance including services like at home palliative care, subsidised post-natal physio sessions, and of course, free education, including free university provision where tuition is paid for.

France is a large country so obviously there will be greater provision of these services in towns rather than rural areas but I think most people would agree that farming is fairly lucrative in France, they have a strong lobbying dialogue with the French government, and that they are obsessive about their food products.

There’s nothing in it to approach this as goodies and baddies. That letter, though, seems pretty clear that leaving the EU was considered a ‘wrong’, not a choice but a mischief. It may be couched in diplomatic euphemism but it’s pretty obvious that Macron wanted the UK to have as little EU cooperation as could be managed, and to make a point. Compromise was obviously not a priority. “Proportionate” is a terrible weasel word.

But, as I said, this isn’t a villain v hero story. It’s the real world. We shouldn’t damn the Commission or EU members either, for looking out for themselves. I just wish the EU had been more sorrow and less anger.

Sovereignty over prosperity is a perfectly reasonable choice, but many voters were misled in to believing that sovereignty plus prosperity would be the outcome.

Macron didn’t say that!

https://fullfact.org/europe/french-pm-eu-president-punishment-letter/

First of all the letter was addressed to the President of the EU not to the UK.

What he said was:

Il paraît donc nécessaire que l’Union européenne montre sa totale détermination à obtenir le plein respect de l’accord par le Royaume-Uni et fasse valoir ses droits en utilisant les leviers à sa disposition de manière ferme, unie et proportionnée. Il est indispensable de montrer clairement aux opinions publiques européennes que le respect des engagements souscrits n’est pas négociable et qu’il y a davantage de dommages à quitter l’Union qu’à y demeurer.

My French isn’t as good as it used to be but that translates as:

“It therefore seems necessary for the European Union to show its total determination to obtain full compliance with the agreement by the United Kingdom and to assert its rights by using the levers at its disposal in a firm, united and proportionate manner. It is essential to make it clear to European public opinion that compliance with the commitments entered into is non-negotiable and that leaving the Union is more damaging than remaining in it”

So he called on the EU for a firm, united and proportionate appliance of EU rules.

The word punishment is not contained in the letter.

If you are referring to his last sentence about making it clear within the EU that compliance with the agreed commitments is non-negotiable and that leaving the Union is more damaging than remaining, that was in response to the UK asking to only have selective* parts of EU law apply, which obviously can’t work within the EU as a whole.

As for smart borders, it was very clear at the time, that the political problems in the island of Ireland take precedence and pre-existing political commitments not to put any borders on the island of Ireland had to take precedence as a condition of the peace problem.

Surely that depends on various factors. Where you live in either country for example, the job someone has.

I live in France now and the quality of life here is far superior to that in the UK.

Don't believe what you read in the UK media.

Did you not hear Macron saying the UK must be punished for leaving? Did you not hear him say to the then PM that NI was not part of the UK (unlike Reunion, in the Pacific, which is definitely a department of France)?
The UK suggested smart borders as are in use in other places where the EU meets a non-EU country. The EU rejected this solution.
Nevertheless I agree that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. However, the question of soveriegnty was what exercised many voters, rather than the advantages that might accrue from EU membership.

What utter tosh. I really CBA to address all of your post but In relation to NI, the Irish Republic democratically decided in 1972/3 that they wanted to be part of the EU and they want to stay part of it because it brings prosperity. So paperwork hassles in NI are nothing to do with any punishments meted out by the EU or France. It’s the inevitable consequence of the UK deciding to leave the EU, which is its constitutional right. Any EU state can decide to leave at any time.

For the rest, over time, it will become clear whether the cost of leaving is a lower standard of living in the UK. For many people it’s not clear cut at this stage because of Covid etc so we have to wait and see. But it will be become apparent given more time.

The paperwork hassle with exporting to NI is all down to France and the EU punishing the UK for a) daring to have a referendum on EU membership after Maastricht and the Lisbon treaty (aka EU constitution in disguise) and b) refusing to either ignore the will of the people or run a second referendum and tell the people to vote the right way or else (showing a complete disregard/ignornce as to how referendums are arranged in the UK, where they are not a part of normal government - and also a complete disregard for the democratic principle, which is why many people voted to leave the EU).
The rise in prices is due to a) privatization of utilities in the UK (France's energy companies are state owned and the government could tell them to keep prices down, for e.g.) and because energy companies have been allowed to profiteer - how come they are making more profits if prices have only gone up in relation to costs?
Food prices are high everywhere, not just in the UK but across the EU and the world. Nothing to do with Brexit; a lot to do with war, rumours of war etc.
Travelling abroad for study was a privilege most of those paying for our membership of the EU could never do. Which is one reason many voted to leave the EU - it gave them no appreciable advantage.
Yes, you are being unreasonable to want to overturn undemocratically a democratic vote.

I'd challenge the 'less educated' claims. I'd suggest a better description would be different skill set.

Manual workers like builders and mechanics etc were the ones most adversely affected by the influx of cheap foreign labour. Is it any wonder that they were the ones more likely to vote leave.

I'd also suggest that those desperately wanting to rejoin the EU have a look at the economy of these Countries. Germany & France the other two major net contributors alongside us are in a poor financial state also, and have a major swing towards more centric right politics.

They can always vote again.

I remember when the EU made Ireland vote on something twice, because it didn't like the results of the first vote.

Now there's democracy!

But saying "project fear" when people point out the obvious and predictable downsides to Brexit and voting for it anyway does. And then claiming that the only reason it didn't turn out swimmingly was because remoaners tried to sabotage it.

It really is the latest fad, to bring up ‘therapy’ to have a dig at someone. I find it a really unintelligent response. I work in mental health and there is absolutely a place for therapy.

It has to be a considered decision and the right therapy given for the right issue. ‘Have therapy’ is not an insult to be thrown at someone who has a different political opinion, and who is struggling as she sees the limited opportunities in Europe her daughter has compared to 20 years ago.

People are allowed to feel normal emotions, without automatically needing professional counselling you know.

What does “better educated” mean anyway. Plenty of young people go to university today who would have not been considered intelligent enough 30 years ago and would not have gone.

Do you mean the news about the benefit of Brexit and Britain's ability to make new trade deals with countries outside of europe? 😃

Well unless you’ve missed the news for the last 2 weeks that is exactly what the Govt has done! But still people aren’t happy!

Democracy includes the right to change your mind.
Unfortunately leave voters have denied the rest of us that right because we'll never be allowed back in now.

this is correct

however I would point out that a lack of higher education does not equal a lack in intelligence

I think people are noticing a shift in politics, in the EU for example, which is more a symptom of a straining system.

@Walkaround your so right. The impact of Brexit has pushed people towards populism. Even though it was what caused Brexit in the first place.

I don’t think calling people thick helps. I don’t understand the details of economics so I look to people I trust to interpret it for me.

I think so much of this turn to populism is coming because people don’t trust the old institutions- the mainstream politicians, the scientists, the economists, the journalists. We should stop calling people stupid and ask how we can rebuild people’s faith in these institutions again. It’s something that I really worry about happening in Ireland too. (Voting for populist parties not leaving the EU necessarily)

I agree. I was strongly a remain voter and felt very upset about the way the referendum was run and the blatant lies and manipulations that went on, but it is just ridiculous and unhelpful to argue that the Leave vote won because Leave voters are stupid and/or uneducated. In reality, plenty of people who voted Remain would have done so on the basis of fear and ignorance, just as plenty of people who voted Leave will have done so on the basis of unjustified anger towards institutions and arrangements they were just as ignorant of. When people of all levels of education and intelligence feel angry and betrayed enough by their leaders, history has proven they are far more likely to believe the fictions of populists when fed something to attach their otherwise unfocused anger on. If it’s uneducated people who fall for this first, imvho, this has a lot to do with them generally having more to feel pissed off about, sooner. As the country gets poorer and poorer, more and more people will start to get dragged into the bracket of feeling seriously betrayed and angry, and growing numbers of people will become more susceptible to the bollocks spouted by populists, whatever their level of education. That’s why I think Brexit was such a disaster, because it has demonstrably made the country poorer at this point than it would otherwise have been, so feeding the populist beast. The consequences of Brexit have simply given even more people reason to feel pissed off about the state of the country.

All these, what would appear from this thread: self-acclaimed young, educated, intelligent euro-centric-remoaners, really need to put their big specs on and see that there is a very large world outside of their little sphere of foot-stomping 'want'. Hard to believe some old, uneducated folk can see there is life and trade and education beyond the confines of europe. Some of it even speaks the same language.

In this case I think it's justified though. Nobody can say they weren't warned about the downsides of Brexit. They just chose to ignore the warnings.