Reform councils to cut SEN spending

Yes. Access to education is a basic essential.

Some on this thread may not realise that councils are dependent on funds directly from central government as well as local council tax receipts. The central government portion has been pared back over the years.

Tell me you have never cared for a person with complex learning needs without explicitly saying though.

It looks like you assume that an EOTAS package may be better than a specialist school place. You are aware that EOTAS packages are generally even more expensive than school education? You also know that you cannot compare bringing up a typical child and teaching chores to that of a child with severe learning needs? Gosh, I don't know why some people feel the need to post on this threads when they clearly have no experience or understanding of the matter 🥴🙄

Are there better ways of preparing people for living independently than in a classroom?
At what age should it start?

With many children they start doing chores at an early age and this builds into independence in terms of cooking and life management in time for early adulthood.

And you also must wonder how many of those children who got the £££ school places may be living an independent life without the need for social care - and how many do need social care because they never turned into fully functioning adults because they were completely let down the the LAs when they needed support to access an education. Sadly, it's often cheaper in the short term to just refuse to fund a school place (without consideration how much this may be contributing to long term social care costs).

All the posters moaning about disabled children are ignoring the disabled adults and elderly requiring social care costing LAs 4x as much.

The problem isn't too many children needing too much support but too little funding for those.

And you could bring this argument about so many other similar scenarios in the public sector. Why are you so obsessed with pointing the finger at disabled children who need specialist places? They are not bankrupting councils. It's the lack of funding.

It's 30 minutes, once a week. I had no idea it was so unusual, it's just the physio he had at home once he was discharged from hospital back in January and moved to the community team and it is the same team that see him at school now instead of at home.

We're still pretty new to all of this, he became suddenly disabled after a complication due to an illness and he was in hospital for 10 months before discharge in January.

Hmm and I wonder how much the top 10 percent of tax contributors, ie the top earners, benefit from the rest of us, either from our labour, or from what we spend our wages on.
It's a bit more complex than you put 20,000 in and take 32,000 out. You could get a private dentist though, and free up the NHS one for someone worse off than yourself, in fact I'm amazed you have one at all.

@Kirbert2 in case you aren’t aware, if more physio and hydrotherapy are required, they can be included in F of the EHCP. Although you may have to appeal.

That is an exceptional level of provision

It really isn’t for DC with more complex needs, which given that poster’s DS has 2:1 is clearly the case. Although many have to appeal to get that level of provision.

The council in my area is opening new, separate wings in existing schools for SEN students to make it more affordable for the taxpayer.

The council closed this provision previously when the conservatives were in control, to save money, presumably on the mistaken assumption that parents with SEN kids would keep quiet and go away.

They didn’t. The council were not providing a basic education for students who were legally entitled to it. They were effectively rationing by the back door because of the high cost, even though it was against the Equality Act.

So parents took the local authority to court and were awarded support for their children plus court costs. That support was usually a place in a private school with transport if not nearby and usually a 1:1, which together is far more costly than providing what they used to before the cuts. The authority admitted that the department in charge was failing and we now have this new strategy.

Well then the large part of society can't complain when she costs far far more as an adult and needing social care support for the rest of her life, unable to hold down a job so fully reliant on disability benefits, most likely in need of a 1-1 carer at all times. I can guarantee that costs far more.

So what is your suggestion?

A huge part of EHCPs is ensuring they are as independent as possible when preparing for adult hood. Even having a child able to live independently with some support, even if they can't hold down a job is cheaper than them needing 1-1, 24/7 care for the rest of their lives.

That is an exceptional level of provision, is this funded by nhs or SEN? 1 hour a week is in reality at least 2.5 hours to include travel and admin time - I'm glad for your son, but this rarely the reality.

We work on training school staff to deliver provision integrated into a child's day, termly visits to review and advise, with a block of sessions post surgery is a standard provision.

Oh wow, that is very poor.

My son has just started back at school full time now that his EHCP is in place and he has the support he needs. He's able to receive physio at his mainstream school once a week and then using his DLA, we also pay for private physio and hydrotherapy outside of school.

And this is the problem. People are so fed up with the current high tax and cost of living and reducing quality of public services. A very limited number of people are net contributors, even relatively higher earners without significant extra needs. For example
DH and I between us earn about 80k - so it would be expected we are net contributors.

• we pay approx 20k a year in tax
• we have 2 children in mainstream school, each costing state around 6k
• we all have some health needs, so cost the nhs I think about 4k a year between us in outpatient hospital care, plus gp appts and nhs dental on top - maybe another 2k so 6k.

• Both work public sector, so our employers contributions are around 9% of total salary, so about 8k total
• universal child benefit of around 1.5k per year

We tax higher, it pushes highest earners and businesses to go abroad so that's a non starter.

People after many years of being frustrated with Tories, are now also frustrated with labour. When people stop feeling hope in a mainstream party, they look for more extreme options, Reform has filled a void, and there is no benefits in calling their voters mean or racist etc. What has to be looked at is why people are turning to an extreme option, and change this before our country goes downhill.

Not endorsing these blinkered Reform types as I loathe what they fulminate over (with no suggestion of what is actually to be done, or suggestion of any solutions).
But I am also a secondary school governor and looking this week at our Y11 stats which show that almost 1 in 4 students is SEN. We have an obligation to look after these kids appropriately and yet with finite budgets. Defunding/Sticking fingers in ears to pretend it will all go away, will not work!

(At some point, at the very least though, we will have to drop the "S" as with these numbers the pupils won't be regarded as special!)

@Bushmillsbabe many have to appeal. Parents should be supported to do so rather than accept unlawful behaviour.

Depending on the specifics, services could also look at JR to challenge unlawful blanket policies.

"£30k is a drop in the ocean compared to the cost of increased resources DC who are not supported as children and young people will cost in adult life. Something those people who resent funding SEN support fail to realise"

This.

Some children will not grow up to be able to support themselves independently as adults.

However the right support when young could significantly reduce thier long term care costs and could significantly increase the chances of semi independent living or part time work or volunteer eprk)

(and whilst I know a few posters are focused on care being a parents job, parents get too old and then die)

It's also fair to point out that many a person without sen does not achieve independence. Many rely on top up benefits.

Trying to get councils to recognise this is a huge challenge. Ours wont fund physio provision of any sort in either special or mainstream schools. So after meetings and requests and quoting statutory guidance got us nowhere, we tried stopping providing it, to try to force their hand. All that hapenned was the children we saw lost out, the families struggled more as they then had to bring their children out if school for all appointments rather than receiving some of their support in school, and stress levels of already stretched parents went up, which was not in keeping with our aim of supporting both children and families. So we returned to doing it, stretching limited nhs funding even further. What should happen and what does happen is 2 very different things unfortunately

The only reason my son can access mainstream education is because he has a EHCP and 2:1 care at school. Due to this, he's far more likely to be able to support himself independently as an adult.

It obviously wouldn't be the case if he couldn't access any education.

£30k is a drop in the ocean compared to the cost of increased resources DC who are not supported as children and young people will cost in adult life. Something those people who resent funding SEN support fail to realise.

Even if a child will never be independent, failing to provide support as a child/young person can result in increased costs across several areas when they are an adult. For example, such early support can be the difference between needing 2:1 care and 1:1. Another example is it can be the difference between someone being supported in the community or needing specialist residential services.

EHCPs don’t entitled anyone to the best possible education or a designer education. Legally it is about what is reasonably required and appropriate.

Sadly I'm afraid this is the point - will 30k per year (or in the case of some children, twice that) result in these young people being able to support themselves independently as adults?

The problem that needs solving is what is the right action to take for SEN /disability that over the long term reduces the cost of supporting them for the state.

Ultimately there simply isn't enough money /not enough people currently are contributors to the state, so a way has to be found to support these groups to be able to work/contribute more than they are doing now, even if it's not at the same level as the rest of society.

The idea is supposed to be that increased funding during the educational years would result in some of these individuals then becoming more able to take on paid employment, or able to live in a more independent way that costs the state less in support.

But it's not working. Despite spending loads more money, fewer and fewer of these individuals with SEN or disabilities are coming out of the education system able to take a paid employment, and costs to the state for people's living /care arrangements (eg via PIP) are only increasing.

So then you necessarily have to question if it's the right use for all that money to spend it on SEN support etc in schools if it is not improving outcomes?

Could it be better spent on money in the healthcare system perhaps, for treatments, therapies etc?

That's the problem governments trying to solve, how best to spend what money is available to deliver the best outcome

Yep, there will be no NHS and he'll bring in National Service. Unfortunately it will be too late once all the 'get rid of immigration' knuckleheads have voted him in.

And to be equally blunt, large parts of society are saying that if it costs £30k+ a year for your child to access that education, they don’t think it’s worth doing.

I think the bespoke nature of EHCPs is not sustainable - the overhead in administration alone is huge. It can’t be carte blanche to a designer education, and I think the quality of many interventions is dubious.