Childcare is not a dumping ground for the unemployable

My daughter works in a nursery. They have to abide by ratios of children to qualified staff - level 3 in childcare. There are unqualified staff there too but they don't count towards the ratios and they can't be left unsupervised with children.

They are helpers and shouldn't be regarded in the same light as the qualified staff.

I think it's everywhere OP. We got this with an Estate Agent, he either got the job through family or dumbed down degree.
Completely hopeless and everything took twice as long.

I agree it's appalling but people who really are unemployable because of illness or infirmity are being forced to take jobs, as they don't qualify for or can't exist on benefits. I have several friends who have had serious health issues (in their sixties) but can't afford to retire and have to work on until 67. One was fortunate and found an admin job with an understanding employer but the other rented their small flat and has gone to live as a 'companion' with an older relative until her own pension kicks in. This is the friend who was directed to apply for a job in a nursery and she struggles to get up from a low sitting position!

Poor quality staff in childcare is purely because the nursery either couldn't recruit any experienced/qualified staff or because unqualified staff are cheaper.

Nursery chains aren't hiring people out of the goodness of their hearts or in a misguided attempt at being inclusive. They need warm bodies in the room so they can maximise children = income.

Yes indeed, the law says reasonable adjustments. At some point you can stop and say, "This adjustment isn't reasonable."

But that itself can become a burden on the business when it's happening with a very high proportion of workers.

External actors like the Job Centre or Careers Advisors, funnelling people into this sector, are actively part of the problem.

No, all staff don't have to be qualified.
Usually privately owned/for profit nurseries will have the minimum number of expensive level 3 qualified staff, some level 2 and then half unqualified - or even better apprentices as they are cheapest of all and can be paid under minimum wage.

The government is also reducing the requirements for qualification so it will be much easier to achieve level 3.

Now, this is a comment where I might stray into the ableism I mentioned in another post but I have a few friends in childcare, including one that owns a nursery. To summarise, they feel they're having to make so many reasonable adjustments for staff they've hired (sometimes without fully knowing the whys and whats) that they find it are having to employ extra staff.

Personally in the NHS, the number of staff who are signed off of unsociable hours means some others work an insane schedule of nights and days.

These sign offs don't always happen until after the person is employed and you have little room other than to work around their needs or keep paying out when you terminate the employment of staff that are frankly burdensome.

I'm quite sure there's a deficiency model going on in the heads of many of these Career Advisors – starting with the Career Advisor's own perception of disability as deficiency.

"You're can't do certain specific things, so you're deficient" => "Children can't do some things yet, so they're also deficient" => "So you're the same as a child" => "So you should go and be with the children".

My DC has ASD, ADD and mobility issues. Children love them but they aren't fussed and don't want their own.

So, I was always amazed when it was suggested they go and do an Apprenticeship in Childcare as a step into employment. They are very intelligent verbally so you'd think these Careers Advisors would see them doing something more appropriate to their intelligence. However, they have issues remembering things without writing them down and are unable to stand for long periods of time. They tried doing a job that involved standing and had to give it up. I don't understand why anyone would think Childcare would be a good option.

I completely understand that your issue isn't about people with disabilities working in Childcare but rather that even with reasonable adjustments these are people who are unable to do the minimum required for the role.

Spot on!!!!!

This is so sad, I'm in childcare but not in UK and expect I've been lucky because most of my colleagues are well able.

In my experience childcare workers are divided into 5 broad categories.

1. the core staff who see it as their profession and are the backbone of the industry. They usually start out as young women with low enough qualifications and gradually build up these (usually reluctantly). They are the type of bright and capable person that the academic education system didn't suit. They love children and are hardworking and grossly undervalued. I've seen some bursting with enthusiasm in their 20s and becoming worn out in 30s as they can't afford to live a good life and it's very wrong.

2. recent highly qualified graduates who bring life and enthusiasm but are gone within months as they are just using it as a stepping stone, often progressing into child OT or speech therapy etc.

3. foreign workers who stay a year or so, mostly European. They are very well qualified and reliable but often have poor English and work hard to improve this and then leave.

4. Young women who see it as easy or have been pushed into it my family and are useless. Often nice gentle types but are lazy and unfocused, or just incompetent. We had one who never worked a full week and called in sick every other day. Thankfully nothing as bad as PPs suggest so far. We have had a few that were let go after a trial period. These have to be carried by their colleagues and create more tension than they are worth but often are needed as a body to fill the ratios.

5. mothers who want part time work. These are the ones with potential, if they can be accommodated. We have people with degrees and work experience in law, engineering, IT, management and many very motivated highly capable women who are doing this as a lifestyle choice. They tend to take their role very seriously and do every qualification on offer. Many are former parents of the nursery, I think we had 3 approach in the last 2 years asking about work experience. They only work PT though term time so leave many gaps.

This definitely isn't the case in my son's nursery. Yes most of them are younger girls, but they all either have qualifications or are working towards them and they do a good job. I think this is very much your employer. I looked around before my son went and felt comfortable and happy, it's all very open plan with cameras everywhere, so I know it's all protected

OK I have a question. What jobs would such people be best suited to?

It will get worse when those very vulnerable people are kicked off benefits and made to look for work in sectors that are totally unsuitable for them.

I'm so sorry - that's awful!

Its been happening with care homes for years Looks like ppl only started to care when it was also affecting childcare settings

Isn't this sad? What sort of society are we when we are putting vulnerable people in these situations? We are highlighting childcare here, but this must be happening in all sorts of areas, such as care homes etc. You have a scenario where vulnerable people are looking after other vulnerable people, including children. This can't be acceptable.

batabata yes the baby died and the story was in the news (the U..S) where I live.

I remember reading a book written by a comedian who worked in a care home for a while. He recalled a new member of staff who was visibly shaking and covered in self harm scars. She did one shift and never came back. He predicted that would happen too.

To clarify, PIP isn't an out of work benefit. If you are eligible, you can claim it whether or not you you are in employment. It's likely these people are claiming Universal Credit, but are deemed fit to work, so their work coach at the Jobcentre would have told them they must apply for as many jobs as possible, even if they are clearly not suitable for this type of position. As you say, this is now having a knock-on effect in the workplace.

One of my friends used to work in a preschool/nursery which was run by two sisters who couldn't spell at all, quite possibly dyslexic. Apparently, they were even cheating on their online exams by asking other members of staff to help. On one occasion, the children were being helped to make Father's Day cards. The cards were sent home with the children and they all said, "Happy Farter's Day".

My friend used to tutor in childcare at the local college and she said the same thing.

Suffocated as in died? Was it in the papers?

Childcare qualifications are constantly being diluted.

I'm a retired childcare teacher. I've seen and heard about a lot of disturbing instances regarding the treatment of the kids. In one center a young teenage worker held her hand over an infant's nose and mouth to stop it from crying and the child suffocated. I've worked with a person who asked me "why are you talking to an infant because they don't understand you". There were others who ignored children who were crying. It's like they had no child development training and/or empathy for the kids. Many of them were too young and inexperienced for this profession . It is an overwhelming job at times and especially hard when the center is understaffed.