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Original poster

To shriek from the rooftops that there is No Such Thing as “preferred pronouns”?

488 replies

Ddakji · 29/04/2025 13:23

That’s it.

They don’t exist - any more than preferred adjectives, adverbs or nouns exist.

Even people who don’t like them still seem to think they exist.

Language is a shared, collective endeavour that belongs to all. It’s not a pick’n’mix for individuals to choose and change at will. For words not to be garbage they have clear definitions - in this case she for females, he for males, they (singular) for sex unknown.

Saying my preferred pronouns are she/her, even if that doesn’t fly in the face of reality, is no different to saying my preferred species is human, my preferred adjectives are sporty and lush.

It’s nonsense. Nothing to do with being kind or they don’t affect me, or I don’t mind if others do but I won’t. It’s nonsense.

Let’s make 2025 the year we kick this nonsense into touch.

OP posts:
Dearover · 04/05/2025 15:36

However, why should Sam be referred to as they when they are perfectly able to tell me if they are a he or a she?

Darkgreendarkbark · 04/05/2025 15:33

Dearover · 04/05/2025 15:22

Why do you think? So I know if they are a he or a she as I'm talking to them in front of a Zoom room full of people. If they only use the chat panel & don't have their camera on, knowing what they prefer is polite and helpful.

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Realistically, though, in the middle of a big Zoom call, are you going to be quickly checking pronouns and adapting your speech on the fly? Maybe you are, but equally it would be quite normal and natural to just say "they" or the person's name. That's what I'd do if I had to refer to someone whose sex was unclear from their name - "I see a question from Sam in the chat - thanks, Sam. So, Sam is wondering about X and whether we should be doing process Y, which is what their team has been trying to do recently...". I can't imagine Sam being terribly put out or surprised that I failed to guess their sex from a Zoom message about work, and recognise it with appropriate pronouns.

Dearover · 04/05/2025 15:32

Well TBF I don't need to know. Do you know if Sam is male or female if their camera and mic are off? I'm simply answering questions which will help them to pass their professional exams.

KilkennyCats · 04/05/2025 15:26

Dearover · 04/05/2025 15:22

Why do you think? So I know if they are a he or a she as I'm talking to them in front of a Zoom room full of people. If they only use the chat panel & don't have their camera on, knowing what they prefer is polite and helpful.

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If people can dictate that you use the pronouns of their choosing, you still won’t know if they’re male or female simply by hearing he or she

Darkgreendarkbark · 04/05/2025 15:23

I wondered if this was going to be a thread saying "they're not merely a preference, they are the true pronouns of the soul". Because I've read that argument before, and therefore believed that the term "preferred pronouns" was itself considered terribly passé and phobic. I think the preferred phrase was "personal pronouns".

Dearover · 04/05/2025 15:22

Ddakji · 04/05/2025 13:56

Why?

Show quote history

Why do you think? So I know if they are a he or a she as I'm talking to them in front of a Zoom room full of people. If they only use the chat panel & don't have their camera on, knowing what they prefer is polite and helpful.

CantStopMoving · 04/05/2025 15:04

CalishataFolkart · 04/05/2025 14:58

Because if you need to refer to them in the third person then you need to know their sex in order to use the correct pronoun.

Clear communication can be facilitated in this example by having pronouns displayed next to a person’s name.

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Can’t you tell their sex by sight or by their voice?

Original poster
Ddakji · 04/05/2025 15:03

CalishataFolkart · 04/05/2025 14:58

Because if you need to refer to them in the third person then you need to know their sex in order to use the correct pronoun.

Clear communication can be facilitated in this example by having pronouns displayed next to a person’s name.

Show quote history

”in order to use the correct pronoun” - so not a preferred pronoun, but the correct one, according to their sex.

How did this work before the concept of “preferred pronouns” became a thing?

“So Sam is going to take on Task A, and he - he? Or she? Which is it, Sam?!”
“He!”
”Cheers, Sam. So as I was saying…”

It’s not that hard, and doesn’t involve a highly contentious or misguided concept.

OP posts:
Original poster
Ddakji · 04/05/2025 14:59

Hastentoadd · 04/05/2025 14:55

I do see what you are saying and I suppose people who do use ‘preferred pronouns’ need to understand that not everyone will respect their preference, I think most people would though

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If that “preference” is the correct word, then yes, of course - not because it’s their preference but because it’s the right word.

OP posts:
CalishataFolkart · 04/05/2025 14:58

Ddakji · 04/05/2025 14:06

Why are “preferred pronouns” helpful? Does your work require you to know the sex of all your colleagues on the call?

Show quote history

Because if you need to refer to them in the third person then you need to know their sex in order to use the correct pronoun.

Clear communication can be facilitated in this example by having pronouns displayed next to a person’s name.

Hastentoadd · 04/05/2025 14:55

Ddakji · 04/05/2025 14:40

If there is a consequence attached, it’s not a preference. It’s a demand. And not respectful.

A quick google gave me this: Preferences tend to be healthy and adaptive, while demands are maladaptive and lead to emotional problems.

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I do see what you are saying and I suppose people who do use ‘preferred pronouns’ need to understand that not everyone will respect their preference, I think most people would though

queenmeadhbh · 04/05/2025 14:49

She and her refer to female people. By calling a man “she” I am agreeing that he is female. I don’t, so I won’t.

EasternStandard · 04/05/2025 14:46

@Hastentoaddyou did use should but if you meant you would would you correct your dc if they said he for a biological male?

Original poster
Ddakji · 04/05/2025 14:43

Hastentoadd · 04/05/2025 14:41

I never said ‘we should’
I said, I would

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You did say should. Your words, should underlined below.

I wouldn’t insist, I would explain that it was this persons preference to be referred to in a certain way and we should respect that.

OP posts:
Original poster
Ddakji · 04/05/2025 14:41

Hastentoadd · 04/05/2025 14:33

I wouldn’t insist, I would explain that it was this persons preference to be referred to in a certain way and we should respect that

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Why should your child respect someone’s demand to have reality denied?

OP posts:
Hastentoadd · 04/05/2025 14:41

EasternStandard · 04/05/2025 14:36

We should? Why?

If they can clearly see the person is male wouldn’t you feel bad asking your dc to lie about an adult’s sex to validate them?

You could say to dc the blue sky is not blue and it would be wrong and damaging, not respectful.

Show quote history

I never said ‘we should’
I said, I would

Original poster
Ddakji · 04/05/2025 14:40

Hastentoadd · 04/05/2025 14:28

But it isn’t a demand it’s a preference, you don’t have to use it if you don’t want

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If there is a consequence attached, it’s not a preference. It’s a demand. And not respectful.

A quick google gave me this: Preferences tend to be healthy and adaptive, while demands are maladaptive and lead to emotional problems.

OP posts:
EasternStandard · 04/05/2025 14:36

Hastentoadd · 04/05/2025 14:33

I wouldn’t insist, I would explain that it was this persons preference to be referred to in a certain way and we should respect that

Show quote history

We should? Why?

If they can clearly see the person is male wouldn’t you feel bad asking your dc to lie about an adult’s sex to validate them?

You could say to dc the blue sky is not blue and it would be wrong and damaging, not respectful.

TheKeatingFive · 04/05/2025 14:36

Hastentoadd · 04/05/2025 14:33

I wouldn’t insist, I would explain that it was this persons preference to be referred to in a certain way and we should respect that

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No if someone told you it was their preference to be referred to as Archduke Napoleon do you think we should respect that too?

CantStopMoving · 04/05/2025 14:35

Hastentoadd · 04/05/2025 14:34

I’m not insisting on anything or compelling anyone to do anything

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If you say someone is disrespectful if they don’t do it, you are insisting and compelling them

Hastentoadd · 04/05/2025 14:34

CantStopMoving · 04/05/2025 14:30

You are insisting that you are shown respect by compelling someone’s speech though. Doesn’t sound very respectful to them

Edited
Show quote history

I’m not insisting on anything or compelling anyone to do anything

Hastentoadd · 04/05/2025 14:33

EasternStandard · 04/05/2025 14:29

Would you insist a child shows respect in this way? Would you say use she dear even if the child can see the person is a biological male.

How would you square asking a dc to lie about what they see?

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I wouldn’t insist, I would explain that it was this persons preference to be referred to in a certain way and we should respect that

KilkennyCats · 04/05/2025 14:32

Shegotanology · 29/04/2025 13:26

Why does it bother you what people call themselves?

Nobody calls themselves a pronoun (except I).
You have no control over what other people refer to you as (especially since you won’t even be in the room while they’re doing so).

CantStopMoving · 04/05/2025 14:30

Hastentoadd · 04/05/2025 14:26

No, it’s respect, not kindness
I expect people to show me respect but by the same token I show respect, you cannot expect to be treated respectfully if you don’t show it
It has nothing to do with people pleasing

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You are insisting that you are shown respect by compelling someone’s speech though. Doesn’t sound very respectful to them

EasternStandard · 04/05/2025 14:29

Hastentoadd · 04/05/2025 14:26

No, it’s respect, not kindness
I expect people to show me respect but by the same token I show respect, you cannot expect to be treated respectfully if you don’t show it
It has nothing to do with people pleasing

Show quote history

Would you insist a child shows respect in this way? Would you say use she dear even if the child can see the person is a biological male.

How would you square asking a dc to lie about what they see?