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AIBU?

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Original poster

To shriek from the rooftops that there is No Such Thing as “preferred pronouns”?

488 replies

Ddakji · 29/04/2025 13:23

That’s it.

They don’t exist - any more than preferred adjectives, adverbs or nouns exist.

Even people who don’t like them still seem to think they exist.

Language is a shared, collective endeavour that belongs to all. It’s not a pick’n’mix for individuals to choose and change at will. For words not to be garbage they have clear definitions - in this case she for females, he for males, they (singular) for sex unknown.

Saying my preferred pronouns are she/her, even if that doesn’t fly in the face of reality, is no different to saying my preferred species is human, my preferred adjectives are sporty and lush.

It’s nonsense. Nothing to do with being kind or they don’t affect me, or I don’t mind if others do but I won’t. It’s nonsense.

Let’s make 2025 the year we kick this nonsense into touch.

OP posts:
Atina321 · 05/05/2025 09:00

Or, and here is a wild idea for Mumsnet, live and let live. Why does it affect you? Why does it matter to you? Do you even know anyone who has asked you to use different pronouns?

Grow up and get back to worrying about your own problems instead of fixating on someone else.

KilkennyCats · 05/05/2025 08:58

Lex345 · 05/05/2025 08:54

Angriest English lesson ever.

Back to subject though, I suppose this was always going to become part of the debate following the SC ruling and we are expected to "declare" our pronouns in so many places now. In all honesty, I don't actually care what labels, pronouns or otherwise, people would like applied to them and am more than happy to respect their choices.

For me, the SC ruling was much more about the legal standing of women, women's safety and women's protections and rights. A pronoun threatens none of these; the legal definition stands.

If the legal definition stands (and thanks be to Christ it does), why are we still entertaining the nonsense that we must “respect” people pretending to be the opposite sex? Or no sex at all?
No.

EasternStandard · 05/05/2025 08:57

CalishataFolkart · 04/05/2025 21:49

Grand, so if I decide that someone looks a certain sex (as OP said earlier, if a lesbian is mistaken for a man because of dressing in a butch style, it’s just a “pitfall”) then I will address them using the pronoun I believe to be correct.

And if that person disagrees I will tell them that I will not be changing it because I am using the pronoun I believe to be correct, and that their preference is irrelevant.

Being correct is all that matters.

Show quote history

Do you often mistake lesbian women for men. Why?

Lex345 · 05/05/2025 08:54

Angriest English lesson ever.

Back to subject though, I suppose this was always going to become part of the debate following the SC ruling and we are expected to "declare" our pronouns in so many places now. In all honesty, I don't actually care what labels, pronouns or otherwise, people would like applied to them and am more than happy to respect their choices.

For me, the SC ruling was much more about the legal standing of women, women's safety and women's protections and rights. A pronoun threatens none of these; the legal definition stands.

Enough4me · 05/05/2025 08:40

CalishataFolkart · 05/05/2025 01:30

Pleased to see that we’ve reached the “we can always tell” section of this discussion

Yes, we are at the stage of accepting reality.

CalishataFolkart · 05/05/2025 01:30

Pleased to see that we’ve reached the “we can always tell” section of this discussion

Enough4me · 04/05/2025 23:20

KilkennyCats · 04/05/2025 22:07

How many people can’t tell a masculine presenting lesbian from a man, do you think?

Show quote history

Exactly, we can tell females are female we just use our eyes as people have done throughout our existence.
As well as being factually incorrect, it's why we cannot pretend men are female, they look like the males they are.

KilkennyCats · 04/05/2025 22:07

CalishataFolkart · 04/05/2025 21:49

Grand, so if I decide that someone looks a certain sex (as OP said earlier, if a lesbian is mistaken for a man because of dressing in a butch style, it’s just a “pitfall”) then I will address them using the pronoun I believe to be correct.

And if that person disagrees I will tell them that I will not be changing it because I am using the pronoun I believe to be correct, and that their preference is irrelevant.

Being correct is all that matters.

Show quote history

How many people can’t tell a masculine presenting lesbian from a man, do you think?

CalishataFolkart · 04/05/2025 21:49

KilkennyCats · 04/05/2025 18:31

“Preferred” means they have a choice in whether we see them as male or female.
As far as I’m concerned, they don’t.

Show quote history

Grand, so if I decide that someone looks a certain sex (as OP said earlier, if a lesbian is mistaken for a man because of dressing in a butch style, it’s just a “pitfall”) then I will address them using the pronoun I believe to be correct.

And if that person disagrees I will tell them that I will not be changing it because I am using the pronoun I believe to be correct, and that their preference is irrelevant.

Being correct is all that matters.

CalishataFolkart · 04/05/2025 21:38

CantStopMoving · 04/05/2025 15:04

Can’t you tell their sex by sight or by their voice?

Edited
Show quote history

In the example of the group work call, people
did not have their cameras on. In my hypothetical I am suggesting they have not spoken yet.

Original poster
Ddakji · 04/05/2025 18:52

Dearover · 04/05/2025 18:27

So their preferred pronoun then 🙂

Show quote history

No. The correct pronoun according to his sex and the rules of English. No preference.

OP posts:
TheKeatingFive · 04/05/2025 18:42

KilkennyCats · 04/05/2025 18:31

“Preferred” means they have a choice in whether we see them as male or female.
As far as I’m concerned, they don’t.

Show quote history

Exactly. It's not preferred, it just is

KilkennyCats · 04/05/2025 18:31

Dearover · 04/05/2025 18:27

So their preferred pronoun then 🙂

Show quote history

“Preferred” means they have a choice in whether we see them as male or female.
As far as I’m concerned, they don’t.

Dearover · 04/05/2025 18:27

Ddakji · 04/05/2025 16:50

whatever the correct pronoun for his or her sex is. Obviously. Sam can let you know that as and when it arises. Just as would have happened before this concept took hold.

I’m addressing that you don’t seem to see what the issue is. If you concur with “preferred pronouns” in one area, you have to concur with them in all.

Show quote history

So their preferred pronoun then 🙂

Original poster
Ddakji · 04/05/2025 17:56

Darkgreendarkbark · 04/05/2025 17:50

I suppose, to be fair, there are probably more cases nowadays where people from different countries are talking online - maybe even using usernames. This creates a new scenario where you can be talking to someone with no clue to their sex (I suppose this could have happened pre-internet, in public written correspondence, and people would generally have addressed this by giving their titles). However, that's obviously not why preferred pronouns have been pushed everywhere in recent years. Otherwise people on online forums would be adding she/her to their usernames instead of merrily continuing the conversation and correcting any misapprehension about their sex as and when it arises.

Exactly this. People have managed to deal with sometimes not knowing the sex of a colleague for decades (even after titles were dropped from correspondence). That’s not why this concept has crept in, and we all know it.

OP posts:
Darkgreendarkbark · 04/05/2025 17:50

I suppose, to be fair, there are probably more cases nowadays where people from different countries are talking online - maybe even using usernames. This creates a new scenario where you can be talking to someone with no clue to their sex (I suppose this could have happened pre-internet, in public written correspondence, and people would generally have addressed this by giving their titles). However, that's obviously not why preferred pronouns have been pushed everywhere in recent years. Otherwise people on online forums would be adding she/her to their usernames instead of merrily continuing the conversation and correcting any misapprehension about their sex as and when it arises.

Original poster
Ddakji · 04/05/2025 16:50

Dearover · 04/05/2025 16:39

I think I'm answering a very different Q you the one you intended. What would you like Sam to call them self?

whatever the correct pronoun for his or her sex is. Obviously. Sam can let you know that as and when it arises. Just as would have happened before this concept took hold.

I’m addressing that you don’t seem to see what the issue is. If you concur with “preferred pronouns” in one area, you have to concur with them in all.

OP posts:
Dearover · 04/05/2025 16:39

I think I'm answering a very different Q you the one you intended. What would you like Sam to call them self?

Original poster
Ddakji · 04/05/2025 16:28

Dearover · 04/05/2025 15:57

Everyone is engaged. Some speak, some use chat panels, some have cameras on....their choice. I really don't see what the issue is if Sam let's me know if they are a he, a she or a banana!

Edited

It matters when you can see it’s a Trojan horse. A Trojan horse that allows male rapists to control their victims in court by insisting on false “preferred pronouns”.

Up until the concept of “preferred pronouns” (which are all about trying to deceive others into thinking you’re something you’re not) came along, it never occurred to anyone that the way around unisex names or names that you’re not familiar with from other cultures was to stick your pronouns everywhere. Just as it never occurred to anyone that pronouns were a matter of choice or preference.

OP posts:
Dearover · 04/05/2025 15:57

Everyone is engaged. Some speak, some use chat panels, some have cameras on....their choice. I really don't see what the issue is if Sam let's me know if they are a he, a she or a banana!

KilkennyCats · 04/05/2025 15:53

Dearover · 04/05/2025 15:52

& let me assure you, many young people do let me know how they would like to be addressed, so it obviously is important to them, especially if they come from (say) a country that I'm unfamiliar with or have a name like Sam.

Are you only allowed to respond to AIBU these days if you agree with the OP & will validate their statement?

Edited

People who take no part in the discussion are anxious about how they’re addressed?

Dearover · 04/05/2025 15:52

& let me assure you, many young people do let me know how they would like to be addressed, so it obviously is important to them, especially if they come from (say) a country that I'm unfamiliar with or have a name like Sam.

Are you only allowed to respond to AIBU these days if you agree with the OP & will validate their statement?

Darkgreendarkbark · 04/05/2025 15:51

Dearover · 04/05/2025 15:49

Nobody is insisting that they do & I don't ask. However, over the course of a 7 hour day, if Sam wants to let me know that they are a he or a she and not a they, that's absolutely fine by me.

Well, sure. If I'm running a seven-hour Zoom and someone silent with their camera off feels the need to message me to say they're a he or a she, fine.

Dearover · 04/05/2025 15:49

Nobody is insisting that they do & I don't ask. However, over the course of a 7 hour day, if Sam wants to let me know that they are a he or a she and not a they, that's absolutely fine by me.

Darkgreendarkbark · 04/05/2025 15:44

Dearover · 04/05/2025 15:36

However, why should Sam be referred to as they when they are perfectly able to tell me if they are a he or a she?

Well, most people would find it irrelevant to specify their sex in a context like that. Imagine you were joining a Zoom full of, say, Japanese people, who would have no idea if your name was male or female. Would you go to the bother of announcing your sex before posting a question in the chat? Assuming the topic of the call has nothing to do with your personal life? I don't think it would even occur to me. I just want my question answered. If, however, the context is more personal and I want people to get to know who I am, then why would I not show my face or use my voice?

Then again, if Sam is that bothered, they can always specify it. It doesn't follow that everyone else needs to be asked to do the same.