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AIBU?

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Original poster

To shriek from the rooftops that there is No Such Thing as “preferred pronouns”?

488 replies

Ddakji · 29/04/2025 13:23

That’s it.

They don’t exist - any more than preferred adjectives, adverbs or nouns exist.

Even people who don’t like them still seem to think they exist.

Language is a shared, collective endeavour that belongs to all. It’s not a pick’n’mix for individuals to choose and change at will. For words not to be garbage they have clear definitions - in this case she for females, he for males, they (singular) for sex unknown.

Saying my preferred pronouns are she/her, even if that doesn’t fly in the face of reality, is no different to saying my preferred species is human, my preferred adjectives are sporty and lush.

It’s nonsense. Nothing to do with being kind or they don’t affect me, or I don’t mind if others do but I won’t. It’s nonsense.

Let’s make 2025 the year we kick this nonsense into touch.

OP posts:
CalishataFolkart · 07/05/2025 02:43

Because at one point in our history, the “truth” was that being gay was absolutely wrong.
Queen Victoria didn’t have a law against lesbians because her “truth” was that they didn’t exist.
It was illegal to be a male homosexual because the “truth” was that it was depravity.

“Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve,” was a slogan of people who believed homosexuality is a disorder, a mental illnesss, not real.

Gay conversion therapy existed (and is only recently being outlawed) because the “truth” was that being gay isn’t natural and normal.

In more modern times, there was opposition to gay marriage because of the fear that it would invalidate straight marriage, thereby depleting its rights and opening the door to all sorts of wrongness. (“Why can’t they be happy with civil partnership? Why do they want marriage? Marriage is sacred!!”)

Section 28 was all about the suppression and denial of homosexuality in the hope that it would just go away. But it didn’t, despite all the efforts to deny it.

Because homosexuality is true. And so is being transgender.

Enough4me · 05/05/2025 23:26

Some posters have been quite confusing on here.
How can saying the truth be judged automatically as horrible or judged as making a mistake?
The truth is simply that the truth
Saying a lie on repeat, loudly, with additional pressure etc. doesn't make it become the truth.

Arraminta · 05/05/2025 22:57

Feelings. Do. Not = Truth.

Original poster
Ddakji · 05/05/2025 20:11

TheOriginalEmu · 05/05/2025 19:09

It’s not different. You want it to be because you don’t want to be seen as a bigot. But it isn’t any different. Someone else’s identity is not yours to decide. Someone else’s gender isn’t yours to decide. And it’s fine if you don’t believe it can be true, that’s your opinion, but that doesn’t mean it’s ok to insist on misgendering people. It’s a nasty behaviour and that’s uncomfortable for you.

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No such thing as misgendering - because the words in question - man, woman, he, she - don’t refer to gender. Or feelings. Just sex. And sex can’t be changed.

So when I refer to someone male as a man or as he, I’m not “mis” anything. I’m using the correct words.

OP posts:
Original poster
Ddakji · 05/05/2025 20:10

TheOriginalEmu · 05/05/2025 18:58

It’s not a lie to say you feel like you are meant to be a man when you have a female body and vice versa. You don’t get to decide someone else’s truth about their body.

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Aside from the fact that it’s impossible to know how it feels to be the opposite sex, feeling is one thing. Invading and colonising our spaces, and taking our words away from us, demanding that others go along with these reality-denying feelings, is something else.

OP posts:
KilkennyCats · 05/05/2025 19:17

TheOriginalEmu · 05/05/2025 18:58

It’s not a lie to say you feel like you are meant to be a man when you have a female body and vice versa. You don’t get to decide someone else’s truth about their body.

Show quote history

Feelings about their body.
Your feelings are not truth. Your opinion and feelings are just that, opinions and feelings.
Nobody has a “truth” that differs from material reality, however strong their feelings are.

Arraminta · 05/05/2025 19:12

TheOriginalEmu · 05/05/2025 19:01

They aren’t asking anyone to validate their position. They are asking them to be respectful of the way you refer to them the same as you do everyone else. The same as a gay person who wants to get married isn't asking for validation, they are asking for the same rights as everyone else.

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Trans women have zero 'right' to force others to blatantly lie.

TheKeatingFive · 05/05/2025 19:10

TheOriginalEmu · 05/05/2025 19:09

It’s not different. You want it to be because you don’t want to be seen as a bigot. But it isn’t any different. Someone else’s identity is not yours to decide. Someone else’s gender isn’t yours to decide. And it’s fine if you don’t believe it can be true, that’s your opinion, but that doesn’t mean it’s ok to insist on misgendering people. It’s a nasty behaviour and that’s uncomfortable for you.

Show quote history

It's totally different. It's been explained why.

Personally I don't really care about people's gender identities, their sex is what's important

TheOriginalEmu · 05/05/2025 19:09

TheKeatingFive · 05/05/2025 19:02

I don't understand why people insist on conflating totally different situations

Gay rights was about acknowledging people's sexual orientation.

The trans debate is about compelling others to affirm falsehoods.

Plus gay rights didn't require others to compromise their rights to accommodate them.

Show quote history

It’s not different. You want it to be because you don’t want to be seen as a bigot. But it isn’t any different. Someone else’s identity is not yours to decide. Someone else’s gender isn’t yours to decide. And it’s fine if you don’t believe it can be true, that’s your opinion, but that doesn’t mean it’s ok to insist on misgendering people. It’s a nasty behaviour and that’s uncomfortable for you.

samarrange · 05/05/2025 19:05

I broadly sympathise with the sentiment expressed in the OP, but "Let’s make 2025 the year we kick this nonsense into touch" is not how any normal person speaks, nor does it really mean anything.

TheKeatingFive · 05/05/2025 19:04

TheOriginalEmu · 05/05/2025 18:58

It’s not a lie to say you feel like you are meant to be a man when you have a female body and vice versa. You don’t get to decide someone else’s truth about their body.

Show quote history

If you have a female body, you have absolutely no idea what it is to 'feel like a man'. Based on what?

TheKeatingFive · 05/05/2025 19:03

TheOriginalEmu · 05/05/2025 19:01

They aren’t asking anyone to validate their position. They are asking them to be respectful of the way you refer to them the same as you do everyone else. The same as a gay person who wants to get married isn't asking for validation, they are asking for the same rights as everyone else.

Show quote history

I have ajways used pronouns to refer to people's sex and I see huge issues with people trying to prioritise gender over sex in these situations. There has been no argument made beyond 'trans people (mostly biological men to be fair) want me too'.

TheKeatingFive · 05/05/2025 19:02

TheOriginalEmu · 05/05/2025 18:56

Yup. Also what they said about gay people. And women who stepped outside their place.

Show quote history

I don't understand why people insist on conflating totally different situations

Gay rights was about acknowledging people's sexual orientation.

The trans debate is about compelling others to affirm falsehoods.

Plus gay rights didn't require others to compromise their rights to accommodate them.

TheOriginalEmu · 05/05/2025 19:01

Arraminta · 05/05/2025 18:05

If a trans woman knows themself to be 100% a woman, then why do they need other people to reinforce and confirm what they already know?

If no one ever referred to me as a woman ever again it wouldn't change my 100% certainty that I am still a woman. Indeed, if everyone only ever referred to me as he/him for the rest of my life, it wouldn't change my absolute certainty that I always was and always will be a woman.

They aren’t asking anyone to validate their position. They are asking them to be respectful of the way you refer to them the same as you do everyone else. The same as a gay person who wants to get married isn't asking for validation, they are asking for the same rights as everyone else.

TheOriginalEmu · 05/05/2025 18:58

Ddakji · 05/05/2025 18:48

Being gay doesn’t involve telling lies and expecting others to endorse those lies.
ditto a woman having a mortgage.

Telling lies and expecting, demanding that others endorse those lies hurts everyone involved.

Show quote history

It’s not a lie to say you feel like you are meant to be a man when you have a female body and vice versa. You don’t get to decide someone else’s truth about their body.

TheOriginalEmu · 05/05/2025 18:56

TheKeatingFive · 05/05/2025 17:54

If a person is hurt by reference to their sex, they need therapy. Not everyone else to lie to them about their reality.

Show quote history

Yup. Also what they said about gay people. And women who stepped outside their place.

WildflowerConstellations · 05/05/2025 18:53

Ddakji · 29/04/2025 13:23

That’s it.

They don’t exist - any more than preferred adjectives, adverbs or nouns exist.

Even people who don’t like them still seem to think they exist.

Language is a shared, collective endeavour that belongs to all. It’s not a pick’n’mix for individuals to choose and change at will. For words not to be garbage they have clear definitions - in this case she for females, he for males, they (singular) for sex unknown.

Saying my preferred pronouns are she/her, even if that doesn’t fly in the face of reality, is no different to saying my preferred species is human, my preferred adjectives are sporty and lush.

It’s nonsense. Nothing to do with being kind or they don’t affect me, or I don’t mind if others do but I won’t. It’s nonsense.

Let’s make 2025 the year we kick this nonsense into touch.

YABU. Of course they exist otherwise what are you referring to?

Enough4me · 05/05/2025 18:50

Ddakji · 05/05/2025 18:48

Being gay doesn’t involve telling lies and expecting others to endorse those lies.
ditto a woman having a mortgage.

Telling lies and expecting, demanding that others endorse those lies hurts everyone involved.

Show quote history

Exactly my sexuality, like everyone elses, is mine.
I don't need anyone to validate me in it.
Gender is dysphoria and an expectation that a lie is validated. It serves no one to perpetuate the lie.

KilkennyCats · 05/05/2025 18:49

Atina321 · 05/05/2025 18:01

Yes it has, because I will call
out hate. I will stand up for what is right. The hate speech here is heinous.

Mumsnet should actually be shutting down this thread as it is inciting hate.

Show quote history

Can you quote the “hate”, please?
I’m happy to report it if you don’t feel able to?
MNHQ will delete it, no problem.

Original poster
Ddakji · 05/05/2025 18:48

TheOriginalEmu · 05/05/2025 17:47

It was once illegal to be gay.
it was once illegal for a woman to own property.
‘It’s the law’ doesn’t mean it’s not morally reprehensible to intentionally want to hurt a person who has done nothing to you or anyone else.

Show quote history

Being gay doesn’t involve telling lies and expecting others to endorse those lies.
ditto a woman having a mortgage.

Telling lies and expecting, demanding that others endorse those lies hurts everyone involved.

OP posts:
Arraminta · 05/05/2025 18:12

TheKeatingFive · 05/05/2025 18:12

Being a woman is about biology. There is no other way to be a woman.

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Absolutely.

TheKeatingFive · 05/05/2025 18:12

Arraminta · 05/05/2025 18:05

If a trans woman knows themself to be 100% a woman, then why do they need other people to reinforce and confirm what they already know?

If no one ever referred to me as a woman ever again it wouldn't change my 100% certainty that I am still a woman. Indeed, if everyone only ever referred to me as he/him for the rest of my life, it wouldn't change my absolute certainty that I always was and always will be a woman.

Being a woman is about biology. There is no other way to be a woman.

TheKeatingFive · 05/05/2025 18:11

Atina321 · 05/05/2025 18:01

Yes it has, because I will call
out hate. I will stand up for what is right. The hate speech here is heinous.

Mumsnet should actually be shutting down this thread as it is inciting hate.

Show quote history

What 'hate' are you talking about?

Arraminta · 05/05/2025 18:07

Atina321 · 05/05/2025 17:41

It isn’t truth though. Just a bigoted rant from people who have no empathy.

Show quote history

It is absolutely true that you cannot change biological sex. Ever.

Arraminta · 05/05/2025 18:05

If a trans woman knows themself to be 100% a woman, then why do they need other people to reinforce and confirm what they already know?

If no one ever referred to me as a woman ever again it wouldn't change my 100% certainty that I am still a woman. Indeed, if everyone only ever referred to me as he/him for the rest of my life, it wouldn't change my absolute certainty that I always was and always will be a woman.