Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor - you have blood on your hands

@GreenApplesRedApplesYellowApples

Excellent post. I agree with all you say. I think we are forgetting how vulnerable a 17 year old can be without parental support and having lived on the streets and been sexually abused.

Yes. And Maxwell was sat on a throne in Buckingham palace and Epstein and her holidayed at Balmoral and took photos of themselves in QE2's private bothy. And they had been to Sandringham. They were all over royal properties with the wider family continually

Did you make a serious allegation against Martin Kemp?

Was Martin Kemp friends with and doing business with a notoriously well known human sex trafficker?

Were you in another country solely at the behest of that trafficker when you met M.K and said photo was taken?

Was M.K caught lying in an interview about the length of time he remained in contact with your Sex trafficker? Caught lying about being in a Pizza eatery at the time of the alleged meeting?

Sure the picture in itself proves nothing, very strictly speaking. But the context adds a lot of weight to the balance of probabilities that what was alleged happened.

Epstein was running a bribery cartel and if Andrew is an idiot, I don't believe Ghislaine Maxwell is as stupid. Especially with who her father was and her background. Yet she is openly in the backdrop of the photo, smiling in a very pleased manner. Why would she allow such a photo to be taken? One with her in it, and one with no other than Prince Andrew, her supposed friend with a lot to lose, with his arms around Virginia? I assume it was the done thing to have video footage or camera evidence of all high profile sexual liaisons with the women and whilst Epstein's mansions were kitted out with surveillance paraphernalia, the flat they were in at the time wasn't. So a picture had to suffice and that was the best opportune moment, when he's high on the thought of soon getting the goods and is being ridiculously incautious. Ghislaine is in the background as authentication.

So if you or anyone here, had come with a photo of any celebrity and the details were the same as in this case I would weigh it up and fall down on the side of believing you until I see persuasive counter details of the same strength and magnitude.

After all, there was never any possibility of Andrew getting into a court room, and whilst that may protect one in the letter of things because, after all 'you cannot be found guilty in law, if no law is set to bear' it leaves him without the protection of exoneration from doubt. It leaves him open to speculation and being judged in the court of public opinion. That is the open court arena he has deliberately chosen. People with reason will do a probability ratio, speculate and arrive at conclusions that tie in with the known facts. How likely is it that PA would have refused sex with a young attractive girl put under his nose to entrap him by a sex trafficker that he was repeatedly exposing himself to? How likely is it that the photo is actually, in fact doctored?

Having endured, like so many women, inappropriate sexual encounters with men without a tenth of the power and entitlement of PA and taking into account the background context. I believe he did it.

Good for you mainecoon.. I think we all know who the rude one is. You are continually saying Bollocks and Bullshit to anyone who has a different point of view from you. And yet I'm rude?! Don't make me laugh!
I suggest you stop replying to Every Single Post of mine with your abrasive rudeness.

@Futurehappiness Well maybe they tried to step in & PA ignored/overruled them. Just speculating of course....but I find it very hard indeed to believe that they wouldn't have known.

This sounds plausible as there have been many reports of him being bombastic towards staff over the years.

She didn't go after any of the bigger players who've been named in connection with Epstein - just the stupid buffoon of a royal, and it makes me wonder why.

I've thought about that, and my conclusions are:

That suing Andrew would make the most noise, nationally and internationally. Rich businessmen, politicians - what do you expect? But a Royal...

That because he's royal and who his mother is, he was the one most likely to pay up to make it go away. She'd been told much earlier that Epstein had the police in his pocket, some of the men (if the stories are true) were very high profile politicians. They too would have the money and influence to fight it and make sure the result went their way. Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky anyone?

I can't remember the details but she did accuse Alan Dershowitz and then there was something about him suing her and then she had to withdraw her allegations. Something like that. I suppose I should google it.

Well maybe they tried to step in & PA ignored/overruled them. Just speculating of course....but I find it very hard indeed to believe that they wouldn't have known.

I don't accept the suggestion that PA was just foolish and naive. This is a highly privileged man who had had access to the best education that (our) money could buy.

Of course Ghislaine Maxwell was at that party. Oh and Harvey Weinstein was there too. 3 perverted sexual abusers at Windsor Castle attending a party at which other family members were present, very much part of the RF fold.

Did VG file a lawsuit against any other men who had sex with her?

I thought it was in the nightclub?

Proving he didn't sweat wasn't going to prove he didn't have sex with her.

She would probably have said she was mistaken as she did with Dershowitz.

I can't remember exactly but was it when they were having sex that she said he was sweating profusely or just before in the nightclub? If he could prove his claim of being physically unable to do so that would only have helped his case, no?

Why didn't security prevent him? A (then) suspected sexual abuser of children? Surely security should have stepped in?

I should have used inverted commas, apologies. I know he isn't a 'victim' in the way the girls were but I think Epstein exerted a lot of influence over the big fool too. He'll have lapped up all the attention.

Whether or not he could sweat wouldn't ever have "irrefutably backed up his claims". Whatever the evidence would have shown, it wouldn't have had any relevance to whether or not he had sex with her.

I dislike the use of settlements for that reason but I understand the process by which they are reached.

That is likely true but it doesn't make Andrew a 'victim' in the way the girls who were trafficked were victims. He was in a powerful position and could have helped the true victims if inclined - but he wasn't.

I don't see how he couldn't have known what was going on even if he didn't himself participate. Epstein attended PA's daughter's birthday party 2 months after an arrest warrant was issued for him. PA's story was that he was not aware at the time that this was the case. But this is a family whose school age children's friends have to pass security vetting before visiting the Royal residences.

Of course PA's own daughters were never going to be at any risk....so as long it was only the 'plebs' children that were exploited it was OK.

On the sweating subject I was sure after that interview the papers had pictures of Andrew with a bit of a sweat on.

A quick Google showed that in the run up to the trial VGs lawyers had insisted he hand over medical documents that would prove he can't/doesn't do it and his lawyer "rejected this request on the grounds that it is “harassing and seeks confidential and private information and documents that are irrelevant, immaterial and not reasonably calculated to lead to the discovery of admissible evidence”.

I do not blame PA or anyone else who doesn't want their private medical information read out in open court but I'm baffled as to how the medical notes that could irrefutably back up his claims and blow VGs evidence apart can be deemed as an irrelevance.

How is saying it may be a pity that Virginia accepted a payout "blaming" her, @mummytoonetryingfortwo?

For all anyone knows she may have had good reasons not to continue the case, but it doesn't change the fact that by doing so she removed any chance if the whole thing being properly examined, and to me at least that's a shame

To whom are you referring?

I've seen it said that Andrew was in some ways also a victim of Epstein? I'm sure he lapped up all the flattery, sycophancy, and financial gains, and I'm sure Epstein knew all the right buttons to press!

How about we blame one of the Most powerful men on Earth rather than his victim?

Yes, and that would have taken time, with god knows what else coming out if the repulsive man had been faced with a skilled barrister. Even Emily Maitlis enabled him to hang, draw and quarter himself, so no wonder he'd never have been allowed in a witness box

That said, none of those issues would have been Virginia's problem, so in many ways it's perhaps a pity she accepted the payoff rather than carrying on

Well said 👏🏻

None of it was tested in court.

Were there more pictures than the one where Andrew had his arm around her? I have a photo of me with my arm around Martin Kemp. It doesn't prove anything either than that we were both in the same place at the same time!

Who were the "countless witnesses" and what was their testimony?

I imagine he could provide medical evidence if he doesn't sweat but I'm not sure he would have been able to prove he was in Pizza Express years later?

Well his evidence was that he was in a pizza express and he “doesn’t sweat”. Her evidence was pictured and countless witnesses.

They haven't and that is one of the things that bothers me most about all this.

She went after Dershowitz and in the end had to admit she was mistaken. To me that seriously dented her credibility. She didn't go after any of the bigger players who've been named in connection with Epstein - just the stupid buffoon of a royal, and it makes me wonder why.

Things such as text messages, recordings, video evidence etc. People have had cases where it was filmed and the police have NFA'd it. Cases where he confessed and it was NFA'd.

I was raped and my rapist text me after gloating about how he loved forcing me to do things the night before. He admitted to raping me. It was NFA'd it despite proof.

My friend was raped and he confessed and she had recorded him. He then murdered her because she reported it and the judge NFA'd it saying she was dead now so no point trying him for rape.

Many have lots of evidence. Without it it wouldn't even go to CPS because of the quota. Sadly the quota prevents it to ensure the data is fudged. Thankfully the CPS have admitted they do this.