Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor - you have blood on your hands

Just to say Prince Philip came to England as an 8 year old, I seem to remember he remember he met the then Princess Elizabeth when she visited Dartmouth Naval college when she was about 13 and he was a cadet although I think they had both attended a royal wedding some years before.

'Consent' in this is not black and white. Trafficking can take many forms, some of which include full control, threats of or actual violence, force, cruelty etc. VG was groomed but she was free to come and go as she pleased. For example, when she met her husband, she just simply stopped working for them. She regularly left the house and also began grooming herself. She could have left at any point. Not giving 'consent' usually suggests she was forced into doing it. She wasn't she was groomed and lured into it. She was essentially giving consent as she was agreeing to have sex with men for money and the luxury lifestyle. The crime here is the grooming of a vulnerable person to make her think this is OK which is why Maxwell and Epstein were charged and the men she had sex with weren't pursued.

The strong rumours were that PA was gay, I heard that from someone in those circles, who also knew George Michael was gay during his Wham years long before it was public knowledge.

In many ways it made sense, I don’t think he has had any other relationship other than SF, a few rumours of dalliances, but no real relationship before or after Sarah Ferguson.

So all the young girl interest was a real surprise, I was sure it would come out it was the opposite sex he had abused.

I don’t think anyone will ever know the full extent of what or who Epstein was, Trump, Clinton, Gates, et all, all ensnared in his elaborate plot.

What difference does it make that some royals are in fact commoners? It still doesn’t change the fact that they have immense unearned privilege and wealth, of a family of billionaires and yet we still have to throw hundreds of millions of people’s hard earned taxes at them, every year.

Prince Philip was not a commoner in any shape or form, as he is only descended from many of the different European royal houses, on both sides. And categorically he did not come here as a refugee. Although not rich, he came to this country to marry a princess, and was not fleeing persecution from France. Yes, he had tough times through out his young life, but he was still generally more privileged then most. It’s such over inflated fawning over another royal, who again lived in extreme unearned privilege and wealth.

Yes, they do lovely charity work and i think that some of the royals are seemingly genuinely decent people, but it’s 2025 not 1525, and I don’t think that we should have this one alpha family, who we are continuously told that they are more important and better than us, whom, if they walk into the room we need address them as “your royal highness” or “your majesty” or whatever. This shouldn’t be happening in this day and age. And their privilege will always make them immune from any real world consequences.

Exactly. There is so much innuendo and no other evidence at all. For all we know he only met her to take that photo. The whole affair from start to finish is holier than a slab of cheese and people have been filling the gaps in many different ways. I have literally no idea what went on and am no closer to knowing now. Doesn’t mean I have a high opinion of him at all but I can’t find him guilty of crimes in my own mind where there is no evidence

Oh, do you mean like Mandy Smith and countless others in the media.

I think it's a shame the matter didn't go to court. We might have got closer to the truth.

Let's not forget that the Queen was dying when Virginia Giuffre was paid to withdraw her claims. We will never know what she felt were her chances of winning the case but she dropped her claim for money, albeit a lot of it.

There is no doubt that as far as Andrew is a bit of a dick with poor judgement, Virginia Giuffre is manipulative and a proven liar. I'd like to know the half of it relating to her relationship with her children and their father. I think it's notable that Andrew's daughters are very nice young women and have stuck by him.

There is much that Andrew shoukd not have done but we do not know if that extends to the claims that Virginia Giuffre made which may be as spurious as the nonsense that she was facing kidney failure having been involved in a serious rtc. She was not.

Yes I think you are right, impossible to disentangle it all. For me the estrangement from my children would be the hardest to bear but lots of mothers do bear that don't they.

I just wanted to add I don't think her children would be to blame if they chose to estrange her, we don't know if they did or why and we don't need to know and her children shouldn't feel guilty.

So the Queen protected Andrew and more importantly paid out untold millions why exactly ?
To make it go away ?

Or to prevent more coming out ?

@HoskinsChoice You have a really good point. Unless the posters can actually prove that their accusations are true, it could be considered defamation.

Excellent post.

The only sympathy I have is for her children.

I find it interesting that so many people think Prince Andrew is a rapist, dispite the fact that there is not a shred of evidence.

This link sets out some of the timeline re Epstein and Andrew post Emily Maitlis interview

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp8qz22dqdzo.amp

You should get this removed, it is libel. There has never been any suggestion by anyone, including VG, that he is a paedophile. You're on very dangerous ground here and putting Mumsnet at risk too.

I know. Some foul posts on here

wow!

Killed by her own hand and choice.

All this talk of Andrew never being charged is a red herring ( and yes I share your disgust @sofiamofia )

The queen was head of the Church of England .The judiciary /army/ parliament swear allegiance to the monarch .

How have the Windsors responded to this privilege ?
They’ve used it as a shield to hide their crimes . The queen and Charles are culpable too.
We’ve had long moving posts here are the life long effects of sexual abuse .
Charles as head of state and of the COE is showing us that doing the moral thing ( complying with the law and having Andrew supply information ) is a principle which only applies to the little people

Have I missed him being found guilty in a court of his peers as per British Law? Or was it only trial by media? As I don’t remember the guilty verdict but may be mistaken.

My take on it is that Andrew is so pompous and so arrogant that the genuinely believed that women would be honoured to sleep with him and that it couldn't be anything other than consensual.

I do not believe he would have sex with anyone without consent. No-one in his position, with years of being in the public eye, and of the gutter press, would be that stupid

Yes, powerful men have never been known to take advantage of women and girls.

I have to stop reading this thread. The utter bollocks being thrown about by the fawning subjects is sickening. Just ask yourself, if it was your 17 year old daughter, would you be quibbling about the legal definition of things, or time passed, or innocent until proven guilty when the actual Queen paid off the victim in order to protect her criminal son.

The current King and the future King has given Andrew their full support but people will still be horrified by Meghan Markle making her own money while waving their Union Jacks for a family that hold the country in contempt and will do anything to protect their own status and wealth.

Has it crossed your mind that the family continue to publicly support him because they actually know the truth. You and I don't know whether he has done anything wrong. But he knows the truth and presumably his family does. I think the fact that the family continue to support him is a sign that perhaps he hasn't done anything wrong.

I'd imagine it was the culmination of a lifetime of very difficult circumstances and can never be attributed to just one factor.

I think it’s more nuanced than a simple it’s Andrew’s fault. Obviously her past had an impact on her mental health long term. However, with the recent RTA and the bizarre “I have 4 days to live” after that; I understand that she had quite vitriolic online bullying and that has to have an a massive impact on her.
tbh people writing shit on line about other people should be fucking ashamed of themselves and think about what they are doing and the possible impact.

But he can't clear his name. There is no evidence to say he did or didn't do it. The result would almost certainly have been innocent due to insufficient evidence. But along the way, lawyers would have trailed over and publicised every private matter of Andrew, probably dragging his family and friends into it too. He had a choice of paying millions on top lawyers and having years of this being dragged through courts or just close it down with money. It's a no brainer and doesn't make him any more guilty or innocent.

Actually. No it isn’t.