Discussion about Jesus’s death which now encompasses creationism and the second coming. Thread 2

I answered this question yesterday as well. I'm assuming you want a theological answer? Most people who are atheists/agnostics don't accept the answer or find it satisfactory, which I understand.

Most Christians believe that the evil in the world is the consequence of humans misusing their Free Will. When humans misused their Free Will, it brought everything evil into the world as a direct consequence, including seemingly mindless and needless suffering. That's one explanation.

Another is that, as humans, we simply cannot fully and truly understand God. We can try to, and learn about him, but he is far beyond us as he is God - a perfect divine being. The choices he makes, for example 'innocent people and children suffering' we might not be able to understand, but have to trust that he has our best interests at heart because he loves us.

I'll say again, this is all from a majority Christian perspective, and you will probably not find the answer satisfactory, which is fine. It's the theologically accepted answer, and has been for thousands of years.

Judging by some of the posters and their views on this rapturing business he very much does expect to be worshipped and adored, we aren’t even allowed to have any other gods or idols (why not?). ‘Making’ us doesn’t mean he deserves eternal worship, I don’t expect my kids to worship me because I made them (whatever worship means).

What has he done? Created humans and given them free will so he can ultimately judge them and punish them for eternity? Sounds cruel and narcissistic to me.

I posted yesterday on the other thread, trying to give perspective as an Anglican RS teacher in a Catholic school.

AFAIK (and I've always learned) the majority of both Anglicans and Catholics accept the theories of evolution and the Big Bang. As most say 'science in the how and God is the why'. Pope John Paul II famously said that there is no argument between science and religion.

That said, people are obviously entitled to their different opinions. We can still be respectful of different beliefs to our own, even if we don't agree.

Any other questions, as someone who has a BA in Theology, a PGCE in Secondary Religious Studies and only one module left to do for an MA in Theology, I'm happy to try and answer other questions!

He deserves worship for who he is and what he has done. Our whole existence is amazing, we have a lot to worship him for.

The word trinity doesn't appear in the Bible, but the concept of the trinity is there.

Why does he deserve worship for making us? We never asked to be made and it's not like humans have done much good, is it.

If you don't think that Religious Bodies sometimes just make things up, where do you think the theology of the Trinity came from?
Or for a more recent one how about the Assumption of the BVM? (Only ratified in the mid 20th Century.)

He is God, he made us, he deserves worship. He doesn't say faith has to be unwavering, many people struggle with doubts which is normal.

I really don't like the sound of your god. Sounds very unpleasant. Could you explain why unwavering adoration, worship and faith in god is so very very important to him?

This rapture stuff got me googling last night and I found there were people who sincerely thought that this was going to occur on a particular day so they stocked up on food (presumably for family left behind? Anyway, to cut a long story short, that was about seventeen years ago. As far as I can tell nowt happened.

There is actually something called rapture anxiety and rapture trauma. The fear that you are not ‘godding’ enough so will not go to heaven when this rapture business starts. It’s all very unhealthy. Thank god (pun intended) I’m a non believer (aka athiest).

David Attenborough's documentaries are fascinating but he doesn't get everything right. I have been to many talks and read many books showing the scientific basis for creation and a young earth. It is highly unlikely I will change my beliefs based on a David Attenborough documentary!

Surely true love is supporting someone even when they have made a mistake or the wrong choice? Certainly it's how I live my life, and I am not in the slightest bit religous.

Does that mean that, in fact, human nature is overwhemingly to to be naturally forgiving and supportive and caring? And so what more to one's value system can religion bring? I am genuinely intrigued.

So a person raised Muslim by Muslim parents in a Muslim country is inexcusable because they've heard of Jesus before? What proof is there that their religion is wrong and that yours is right? I think it would take a lot more than just hearing about Jesus for someone to abandon their cultural and family religion.

Surely you're making the same choice to not accept Allah, if Islam turns out to be the one true religion? Do you think it's fair that you would go to hell in that scenario, even if you'd been a good person for your entire life?

Unfortunately there have always been wars and conflicts but the world continues. Nothing has changed.

I think most Christians, including me, believe that children would go to Heaven.

The people who don't go to Heaven are those "without excuse".

People old enough to understand, who have heard about Jesus, are "without excuse". The vast majority of people in the world have heard about Jesus. They have a choice. Subscribing to Islam, Hindu, atheism, communism, or any other belief or non belief system is a choice not to accept Jesus. Make a choice, accept the outcome. It may sound tough - it is tough - but it is their choice.

This explains it well:

https://www.gotquestions.org/do-babies-go-to-heaven.html

I'm glad you're so confident the world isn't going to end - even if you completely remove religion there are still other reasons why it could do so! Humanity being the biggest threat, I'd argue.

I noticed that a poster I replied to didn’t bother replying to me as I assume it would be a bit awkward for them. I didn’t ask a question tbf but I thought I had more than a valid point so I’ll open it up to others.

To those that believe god created the world and that evolution isn’t real, in that one species can’t turn in to another, what do you think of David Attenborough and his widely acclaimed and respected documentaries? He shows evidence and describes how things evolve over time. Do you just dismiss it?

Or professor Brian Cox who is a physicist and makes documentaries about the universe and how it evolved and that it’s billions of years old etc….

I can only assume you think these documentaries are absolute nonsense?l and that you don’t believe the physics to be true, despite the evidence? I find that absolutely fascinating yet terrifying at the same time

The Bible's ambiguous and contains a lot of allegory. If you pick and choose which bits you regard as factual and which bits as allegorical, and then pick your favourite interpretations of what those allegories actually mean, you can find Biblical justification for pretty much any position.

It must have some basis in the bible though as it can't be just made up out of nowhere.

I see it as yet another scare tactic to get people to worship and obey.

As a non believer I’m 100% confident that nothing is going to happen to non believers about this non existent event. Happy to continue with my life as it is now. The world isn’t going to end.

Where did I explicitly state I am right?!

I am fully aware other denominations do not see things in the same way. None of us will know who is right (and by that time I suspect we won't care) until the time comes in the way that God has decreed. I am fully - FULLY - prepared to be wrong about it. But right now, that's the way I'm inclined.

Well this is a veeeery interesting thread.

I've been interested in religion / spirituality for a long time. Not sure exactly how I'd describe myself as my thoughts and feelings are pretty eclectic.

I'm interested in the Gnostics because the Demiurge seems like a reasonable concept.

In terms of Biblical stuff, and who what why "God" is, I know that there is reference to it being a force that we as humans cannot comprehend, and really can't even name. I'm also struck by the bit about "in my father's house there are many rooms" (sic) which seems like a reference to our minds I think, and the infinite potential to construct our own thoughts and beliefs about the nature of existence. Because, before science, that's what we did.

If you think about it, at some point, a human, or collection of humans came up with the idea of God and then passed it around until it became fixed. We can't know exactly when, why or how, but it's certainly served a purpose in terms of power and control over the years.

I do think prophecy is mostly self-fulfilling. The stuff about end times and Rapture is just too convenient for fear mongers, and unfortunately at the moment there are those with power and influence trying to engineer their preferred and frankly horrific outcomes - see the Al Jazeera documentaries "Praying for Armageddon" for an enlightening take on this.

I've experienced my share of the unexplained over the years, and I file it away with mild interest, because there's danger in becoming fixated or over-invested in anything.

I think "spiritual" battles are just as much psychological battles.

I also think alot of religion and dogma is a cop out for personal responsibility - "It's not me, it's God's will", as one section if society slaughters another - error, no, that's greed, power and blood lust.

Bottom line, my ethos is just along the lines of "don't be a dick" and if we can figure out why we are here, and how, all well and good. We might not like the answers, and maybe life without mystery would be pretty boring.