Discussion about Jesus’s death which now encompasses creationism and the second coming. Thread 2

@Parker231

Here's a discussion on the issue of evil/suffering from a polytheist perspective. Ocean Keltoi discusses the topic from 11.09 to 18.30. I'll go into a few of his points below, but I recommend watching that segment if you're interested.

First of all, polytheists traditionally (and mostly still do) hold that while deities have power and influence, they are NOT all-powerful, all-knowing or all-loving, which is how God is understood in the Christian monotheist tradition.
So as a polytheist, I might say that deities are unable to prevent evil - they may not be aware/knowledgeable of all the evil things happening in the world, and even if they are aware of some of it, they may not have the ability to do anything about it. In some cases, deities may not even want to do anything about it (like I said, we - polytheists - don't see the gods/goddesses as all-loving.)

Another suggestion that Ocean Keltoi gives is the 'greater good' theodicy, which argues that the existence of certain kinds of evil allows a greater diversity of good in the world - when someone suffers unjustly, people might rally around to help them, for example. So certain kinds of evil and suffering are necessary in order for there to also be the greatest number of expressions of goodness.

But of course, there are also forms of suffering that are unnecessary for the fulfilment of good actions - Ocean gives the example of "a faun dying alone in a forest" - and then we return to the earlier point that the deities are not omnipotent, omnipresent beings.

A direct quote from Ocean - "Traditional polytheists also hold that the gods are not the only powerful agents, but that there are also malicious forces in the universe. Within Heathenry, there are stories of Jotunn, trolls and other beings that bring great harm to the gods and to humanity...there are stories of the gods in struggle with each other, there are stories of kinds of gods engaging in destructive war against each other. So the problem of unnecessary suffering is easily explained by stating that the gods, while powerful, do not govern every event in the universe, and may not always be in agreement. Therefore, unnecessary suffering, while being frustratingly unnecessary, takes place."

We know how dinosaurs fit into the scheme of things, in terms of the 14 billion years since the Big Bang. What we don’t know is how the stories in the bible can fit into the creation of the universe, the development of life on earth, the first human like creatures 7 or so billion years ago and emergence of Homo sapiens as we know them today 300,000 years ago.

It is likely that since the emergence of Homo sapiens people have invented stories to make sense of the world around them, and we know that civilisations have worshipped any number of gods over the millennia. The current popular religions of Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and Judaism are the latest in a long line of religions which, ironically, continue to evolve as life on earth evolves!

Even with the best intentions how can anyone be ready for a life in heaven? You can’t have the same emotions, temperament, personality when you’re in heaven as nothing will be different to here. I would still swear if I hit my toe (assuming I am not numb of any feelings), I will still be impatient and get grumpy etc, unless I am given a brand new or different brain. If you’re given a new or different brain then how can you prepare to be ready for a life heaven?

I am not in fear of drowning! The Bible can only be fully understood by reference to to its context. The creation description was written thousands of years ago for people with little concept of time and no knowledge of how the earth and its life forms came to be as they are.

Try to imagine somebody, who lives by growing his own food and making his own clothes, and really only knows how to do that. Would you give him a book with all the detail that you would like, when he can't even read?

I'm really sorry, but there is nothing I can see about any of this outlook that changes the utterly sadistic approach that your "God" appears to have. It's brainwashing. Put up with any amount of suffering gladly because "rewards in heaven". As I said above, it's a similar mindset to MLMs where any injustice that is suffered is put back on the individual for "doing it wrong" even though all instructions have been followed.

You also see it in the New Age cults. If one more person tells me I just need to raise my vibration, and that "I'm asking for" the number of overwhelmingly shitty experiences I'm constantly dealing with, things might get very messy indeed.

So would you believe the Bible if someone gave you the "right" explanation of how dinosaurs fit into the scheme of things?

How well do you know the Bible? The New Testament tells us that we're given a life on Earth to prepare for eternal life when we leave here. Death of our earthly body is intended to be transition to eternal life in a new, sickness-free body. God's plan is for people to prepare for Heaven by believing that He wants them to go there, and living in a way that makes them ready for life in Heaven. He knows that's challenging but He helps us.

Christians talk about death quite a lot because it's the turning point where we either go to Heaven, or not, depending on choices we have made. To go there we have to tell Jesus we accept Him as Lord and Saviour, and try to live as He requires so that we will fit into the Heavenly way of life, which is based on love.

Our eternal life actually begins here when we accept Jesus. A relationship with Him is enormously life enhancing when we have faith. He wants us to feel joy, and to encourage other people in their faith and lives, and to tell non believers what they can have and how to receive it.

@Parker231

I can understand the dislike of these expressions of Christianity (although to be fair, there are other forms of Christianity that don't endlessly focus on death/end times.)

However, your last sentence gives the impression that you're equating specific expressions of Christianity as the sum total of 'religion'. There are numerous other religions out there that are very different in expression to Christianity, or other forms of monotheism.

Many polytheistic pagan religions do not have 'rules' as such, and while they believe in continued existence in the afterlife, there isn't an exclusive focus on death.

Why do Christians claim that their religion is all about love and understanding whilst endlessly focus on death? Why can’t you focus on still enjoying life instead of end of day scenarios and endless rules. No wonder us non believers consider religion wrong and weird.

@KeepHopeful you are adhering to the Gods of the Gaps argument like someone drowning. That's the problem when people step to the extremes of faith - thought and question go out of the window and next thing you know, we're burning witches.

Quite apart from anything else, Bishop Usher overestimated the length of a human generation, so his calculations should have concluded that humans have only been around for 4,500 years.

https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/where-did-dinosaurs-come-from.html

Id suggest you visit the Natural History Museum and speak to the experts who have researched dinosaurs. They existed.🦕

So just to be clear, you do not believe that dinosaurs existed and that the earth is around 6 thousand years old, because that is what the bible says is true?. Do you also believe that Adam and Eve were real human beings, and that the garden of Eden was an actual and real place?

KeepHopeful · Yesterday 21:23

I can't find any mention of dinosaurs in the Bible and I am not interested in debating whether they have relevance to its accuracy.

Well, of course not; it would be terribly inconvenient for you to have to address actual, verifiable facts, rather than blind belief.

Why do you think he heals some people and leaves other children, for example, to die long slow deaths in agony? What justification could there be for that in your view, if you believe him to be a loving, kind and omnipotent god?

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Healing is a special interest of mine. I know churches with amazing healing ministries. I've read and listened to healing evangelists and met one personally. I have seen healings, have ministered a few myself in small ways, and heard about some truly amazing miracles of healing.

Books have been written about God's healing, about healing ministries, and how to do it ourselves. The way God shows His love by healing people is wonderful. It's fascinating that he sometimes uses people in a big way in healing ministry who themselves have disabilities - some have had bad stammers - quite a disadvantage when they speak in large meetings or appear on TV!

God can and does heal serious diseases, injuries and disabilities. Sometimes He does, sometimes not. Much is said and written about this. He will not heal people without prayer. Somebody - the person ministering, people praying, or the recipient of healing - must have faith for it. Faith is essential. But even when there is plenty of faith and prayer, some people are not healed. Nobody knows why except God. He always has His reasons and even if He told us, we probably wouldn't understand or accept His explanations. His ways are not our ways.

I know and have known people with very strong faith, who could attest to God's love, provision and healing in many ways. I have no doubt about God's love, grace, mercy, wisdom and power. One of life's biggest frustrations is not understanding why some people get healed and some don't. There can be all sorts of reasons why healing doesn't happen, but sometimes when you know the people concerned it just doesn't make sense.

If somebody, adult or child, is suffering and nobody is ministering healing or praying with faith, we can't blame God for not doing what He isn't being asked to do. If there is some serious ministry or prayer, then we can reasonably ask, why no healing? Sometimes the reason is that God wants somebody to have more faith, or to do something differently. He may have other reasons. But I agree with you that it's hard to understand why He would let children suffer horribly if people are praying for them. If that's what you're referring to.

If you want to discuss this further after this thread times out, you can PM me, or possibly start your own thread - but then I probably wouldn't know about it unless you PMd me!

Any discussion of dinosaurs in a faith context must lead to the creation/evolution controversy. Scientists and theologians have debated that extensively for a very long time. The accuracy and validity of carbon dating over very long periods is highly controversial. The validity of Darwin's Theory of Evolution is highly questionable since there is no proof that one species can evolve into another. There are no fossil records of intermediate species, only groups of apparently similar species.

I have no particular knowledge of the subject, and I don't see it as essential to proving or disproving the Bible's authenticity and authority. I'd rather spend time on things I know and care about.

But what is the controversial aspect that you mention? Is it that dinosaurs are not mentioned in any holy texts in regards to evolution? Surely the reverse is true given the concrete and indisputable evidence, based on clear and systematic research?

My comment was based on a church leader's guess at how new bodies will appear. The Bible doesn't give practical details of what our bodies will look like. It does say that people will have new bodies, and there is no sickness in Heaven. It seeks reasonable to think that they will be free from visual evidence of illness or injury, but that's only conjecture.

Jesus bore all our suffering for us, so the fact that He came back to Earth with His scars doesn't actually imply that we will have scars from injuries, skin disease or whatever.

If my idea of how people may look offends somebody, well, sorry, I'm only guessing.

I'd rather comment on things I know something about, than on complex controversial issues which experts have argued over for centuries and of which I know very little.

Dinosaurs existed for over 160 million years, on this planet, pre man, in oppose to the mere 6000 years the bible tells us the world has existed. How can such a fundamental aspect of our earth’s evolution be omitted from our supposedly most sacred text?

I can't find any mention of dinosaurs in the Bible and I am not interested in debating whether they have relevance to its accuracy.

Open minded. Whatever evidence or arguments may be presented for their existence or when, does not affect my belief in God. I'm more interested in matters that actually affect me.

@Puzzled4

This is where polytheism, in particular pagan polytheism, is different to Christian monotheism. These other Gods and Goddesses do not require/demand that people believe in them/worship them. Which is why some pagan polytheists believe all the deities exist, but choose not to honour them or engage with them. Other polytheists may choose certain deities to honour and form a relationship with, but it's our choice; there's no compunction and no threats of punishment if we don't.

Jesus still has his scars. When he reappeared resurrected to the disciples he showed them the scars on his hands and in his side. That's his eternal body.