AIBU to ask what you think should happen with Trans men?

OK. But we can't pick and choose like that. Or to suit individual understandings or opinions.

You might be unconvinced about toilets but, others aren't and the existing law is very clear.

Either we have single sex spaces or we don't.

No one is obliged to provide single-sex spaces but, where they do, they must be single sex.

And that sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

There is already legislation around providing unisex toilets so that can be done. It already exists.

And, in the words of the great Mr Spock, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one."

My experience of being a woman has always come from the stance that I am prey. I grew up in the 80s and 90s and it’s only since I became fat and middle-aged that the harassment from men has lessened.

I realise that not all women live in fear of men but we are all raised to be wary and it’s culturally recognised that we are at risk of attack from them. This is why we have Ask for Ani at chemists and the codes we can use at bars and restaurants to keep us safe, why we’re warned to stick with our friends and not walk home alone after a night out.

This fear is inherent in me due to lived experience and past and current cultural standards. A man in a space that is private, where I am vulnerable, engenders the fear response in me and in many women. We need these safe spaces because women are vulnerable to attack from men.

If you do not look like a man, you will not make me feel unsafe in a private space. I suspect TW who “pass” will continue to use women’s spaces to stay safe. I hope TM who “pass” remain safe using male toilets and changing rooms if they choose to, and that the ruling does not create danger for them. No one is standing guard checking genitalia and barring entry to these places. A TM who does pass can create fear in women in a private space but there will be an understanding of this having lived as a woman previously so they’ll make their choice accordingly.

If you are a TW who doesn’t pass, you can invoke fear in spaces where women are vulnerable and undressed. I realise that TW are also vulnerable to physical attacks by men but it seems that we’re putting a sticking plaster over the real issue. We really need to address the deeper issue of male violence.

Look at the statistics of how many women die at the hands of men each year. Why is this not addressed? Why do we bend ourselves around this culture and thereby condone it?

As this issue is now affecting men themselves, perhaps something will finally be done about it?

ALL people have rights here in The UK.

I've worked with a lot of transmen - there is a group of about 50 who meet in my town, so there definitely aren't only 'three in the country'!!

They pass amazingly well. Some you would think are gay because they have some feminine traits. Some seem a bit 'awkward'. Most look younger that their age. But you wouldn't look twice.

Personally I'd say 9/10 transmen "pass" but only maybe 1/10 transwomen.

Feminine traits are largely obliterated with beards and testosterone and there's a wider range of 'acceptable' male behaviours/presentation which includes a lot of quite feminine/camp/softly spoken speech and actions. That's not the same for transwomen, unfortunately, and most overplay the 'feminine' stereotype (stockings seems to always come up...).

This is about toilets AGAIN isn't it

There is more to this judgement than toilets trans men will now have their maternity rights protected too before they technically did but a company could refuse because you know they are a man and men don't have the right to anything but paternity leave

Maybe look into that

In fairness it is all getting very confusing. I think I should probably stop replying to everyone - not in a 'walking away whistling' way, but just because I think my point is getting lost.

I'm not convinced that toilets should be included in single sex provision based on the evidence. I'm not upset about anything, I just disagree with some of you on this.

I don't think I understand what you're unhappy about anymore.

Single sex means single sex - agreed.

Sex is binary and immutable - agreed.

We're not going to change the definition of sex - agreed.

But you still want to knpw exactly what the risk of a woman being raped in a single sex toilet by a TW is to see whether it's justifiable to keep them out?

Surely the three points you agreed with above nullifies that?

The law has already clarified that organisations aren't required to provide single sex provisions. But, where they do, they must be single sex.

I don't understand what is so confusing for you.

Scottish judge just ruled that schools have to provide single sex toilets and I expect this will extend to other spaces.

Because women have certain things they do in loos that men don't, regardless of all the nitpicking about where women should breastfeed or how they should take care of their menstrual functions. I am not even talking about proper breastfeeding. I am talking about basic things like fishing a soaked breastfeeding pad out of your bra. Sponging stains off your clothing. Struggling with flooding periods in peri.

Things only women do.

Yes, they do and the ruling has been very clear about that and I've not read a single comment from anyone on MN saying otherwise.

But not the right to use provisions for the opposite sex. It's literally that simple.

We have had single sex toilets in the UK since 1880s. Primarily because it enabled women to leave the house for longer periods and to have privacy and dignity in doing so.

We don't need new evidence now based on how many women have been raped.in single sex toilets to continue to provide them 🙄

Well, as long as you're not raped... is a pretty low bar to set for protecting women's rights. Don't you think?

Men don’t have the right to be in women’s single sex spaces.

Even if they claim to be transwomen .

That IS the law.

As confirmed by the Supreme Court.

But the position in law is already that it is reasonable and proportionate for women to have single sex spaces in a fairly wide range of situations.

And I think what we have seen since the Supreme Court judgment is evidence that the number of women who consider that they want and need such spaces by far exceeds the number of trans women who want access to them.

Transwomen present a danger to women in the way that all men present a danger to women and should not be in their spaces.

Transmen do not present a danger to men. Indeed, they mainly represent a danger to themselves if they are rash enough to use male spaces. Because they are women.

That's the law now.

No. I think they'd rule that providers have the option, and that in certain settings single sex is mandatory, but but not all.

I don't disagree with a single word of that.

Single sex means single sex - agreed.

Sex is binary and immutable - agreed.

We're not going to change the definition of sex - agreed.

But I would add that law and policy aren't made based on what YOU are personally OK with, either.

Do you think any court will rule that there is no legitimate or proportionate aim in having single sex toilets

Well luckily law and policy aren't made based on what you personally are OK with.

Single sex means single sex. Sex is binary and immutable. We're not going down the road of changing the definition of sex to make it mean complete nonsense, just to please men who believe they are women.

I wouldn’t want a man with a penis, or a woman who very much looks like a man, acts like a man etc in my changing room or toilet. Nor would I want this for my daughter.
These people are aware that they have themselves chosen to transition, and part of that should be an understanding that they will need to use disabled/unisex toilets. It is totally correct that they should not be using the women’s toilets.

You're right. The question is what should be defined as a single sex space going forwards. I personally don't think toilets need to be. You do. Neither of us will decide, the courts will, and I trust them to make the right decision because it will be evidence based.

It's not the point but women shouldn't have to breastfeed in loos, full stop. There isn't enough provision for quiet spaces for women to feed their children, and babies shouldn't be forced to eat in toilets. Adults wouldn't.

Trans women should be excluded from breastfeeding spaces too, while I'm at it.

Also not the point but I am extremely period positive and even I wouldn't wash out my menstrual cup in a public sink. Period blood isn't disgusting, but it isn't sanitary either and no human bodily fluid should be in sinks that other people use when there aren't facilities in loos to clean the sink after you've used it.

Tue ruling was actually quite clear on this.

Where a transman passes and is physically indistinguishable from another male to the extent that no one would recognise them as female, then they can also be refused access to women's single sex spaces and should continue to use whichever spaces they have been using.

In reality, this would also apply to transwomen because, let's face it, no genital/ID checks and all that.

But that is far less likely to happen because the effects of testosterone are irreversible so very few men would genuinely pass as women whereas it is possible that a taller broader woman who has taken testosterone and developed secondary sex characteristics could pass as a man.

I'll try and find the quote. I've seen it posted a few times!

They don't have the right to be in single sex spaces for members of the opposite sex though.

Because law has to be based in evidence when two parties' rights conflict, and trans people do have rights, however you feel about that.

Sorry to quote myself but I’ve only had one reply to this, and that was ‘when has it ever happened?’

Im not sure that’s ok? Just because it might not have happened doesn’t mean the threat is not there. And also, the first time will be one time too many.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

I have no problem with trans men, i.e. women, using women’s loos. It’s men I don’t want in single sex spaces which are reserved for women. HTH.