AIBU to ask what you think should happen with Trans men?

You may be happy to debate around it but I'm not. I can't be bothered any more reading whatabout-this and whatabout-thats. I do find it odd and said so. That's where I stand.

I couldn't care less whether people agree with me or not on any issue but when it gets to the stage where I'm querying whether a poster is a woman, on a thread like this one, there's no common ground to cover.

Absolutely.

It's about the fundamental right to associate with who you wish to and the Equality Act allows for women to meet and organise with other women for whatever reason.

For solidarity, for sharing, for dating, for support, for safety etc. And these people tried to take and, for too long, were successful in taking that right from us. Where the equivalent was NEVER applied to men accepting transmen.

That was the biggest sign to me that this was not about 'trans rights' but about a small minority of men who just weren't going to accept women saying no to them.

And they were allowed to do it.

And it's also why there are so many people still now calling for fundraising to challenge the ruling (I mean, where are they going to take it? Its been agreed at the Supreme Court!) But it just doesn't sit right with an awful lot of people, at a really fundamental level, both men and women, that women have been told its OK to say no to men.

That's a choice though. What about women who have been forced to avoid going to places they would otherwise go to because their single sex spaces include men?

Just jumping in with a mooncup comment. I use one and have for years. At work I use the disabled loo as I can use the sink in there. Or I find a single unit space somewhere if I’m out.

Yesterday at work the disabled loo had an out of order sign on the door. I went to the ladies, 2 stalls & an open area with sinks. Emptied my mooncup, tried to sort of wipe it with loo roll - which then wouldn’t come out of the holder thingy - one of those with 2 rolls and you have to slide a thing across to get to the second roll, whole thing jammed and wouldn’t work. I ended up looking like I’d just murdered someone, blood on my hands. Thought fuck it, managed to pull my knickers up, opened the door, sort of waddled to the sink to properly wash my hands, then pull my trousers up properly before sorting myself out.

I was relieved no other woman was in there. I thought about what if a man had been, I’d have felt stuck in the loo and totally embarrassed. Why should I have to consider if a man is in my toilet space?

All men have to stay out and I firmly believe all good men would. Which makes those that intrude the worst kind of men.

It IS a tangent, yes. I'm a bugger for a tangent. But contextually appropriate - I didn't just start talking about mooncups out of nowhere.

@LyingWitchInTheWardrobe - happy to debate around our points of difference but telling me my posts are odd, questioning my sex... That's playing the player, not the ball, and the idea that everyone that disagrees with you is odd, or must be a man, a trans activist or a trans person because they simply can't be a woman doesn't reflect the diversity of opinion on this issue. Someone else yesterday held me in 'particular contempt' or similar, because women that aren't fully aligned with the groupthink on here, or fully trans exclusionary, are somehow traitors.

None of that is helpful.

I'm just going to wee before I go out and keep dehydrated until back home. Too bloody confusing

This! Men are the threat, and TW are men, whether they like it or not.

I know a transman who uses the male (self contained) cubicle at a local pub. There is no urinal in there.

I know 2 transwomen, both many years post op, married to men. Live quiet lives under the radar, no activism. They dress in jeans/trainers/tshirts like me. I have never objected to them using the women’s toilets and still wouldn’t. I know they are biological men and I know the law has to be applied consistently.

I know both would now avoid places they usually go to if they had to use the men’s toilets.

I mentioned it actually. I dont use a mooncup but some friends do and I have seen them rinse it. But honestly @Bloozie has taken that mention to go off on a tangent about hygiene.

Women need their own loos no matter what we do in them. Especially when the counter argument is that men can have their own loos because they are violent rapists.

All a bit of a non-issue this mooncup thing, isn't it? You've never seen anyone rinse it off, neither have I. If I did then it would be yet another thing that women have to do that is absolutely none of my business and other than a smile in solidarity if they catch my eye, that would be it.

I really can't think why you mentioned it at all, Bloozie but then your posts really on this thread are very odd.

I’ve never seen anyone rinse off a moon cup
in the sink. I use one and I’d hunt out a self contained loo with sink or take a bottle of water to the loo if necessary.

I am absolutely a woman. And you are right that I have never seen period blood mess in the sinks in public loos. I don't think I used mess, did I? I've also never seen a woman clean a mooncup out in the sink. But if the argument is that women do this in loos and don't want to men to watch - which is fine - my completely tangential thought was that without antibac sprays and stuff, regardless of visible mess it's still unsanitary.

I do check the food hygiene rating of takeaways to make sure they're 5 and avoid touchscreens though, so I might be an outlier in my intolerance for bodily fluids in sinks.

Most transwomen are heterosexual men.

I think this is the point, the debate has been reduced to toilet cubicles. Women are most likely more vulnerable to men pretending to be women in those other scenarios. Women have probably been peeing alongside trans women for decades, we only really got animated when it became clear that all our single sex spaces were now up for grabs.

Women aren't enraged because men are pissing in their loos, they're enraged because they've seen their own sex based rights systematically destroyed by a small, vocal minority. Until recently, we all lived side by side pretty harmoniously.

It's worth noting that the East German Stasi secret service had an official policy that any woman athlete on their doping programme who became pregnant should have an abortion, and if a pregnancy continued they should be forced to give birth in a Stasi controlled hospital. They clearly recognised that giving young women steroids & testosterone would cause developmental problems in pregnancy. Funny how no-one is discussing the possible impact of NHS supplied cross sex hormones on pregnancy when a woman on topiramate for migraine has to get the coil and sign a pregnancy prevention plan.

No woman leaves a 'period blood' mess in the sink. Women are welcome to use the women's toilets and sinks and that's that. If you are eligible to be there in the ladies toilets and you see a woman leave a mess then feel free to take it up with her.

If you're a woman you really don't post like one.

I think it was largely swimming and athletics that was affected but there may have been some in the strength sports

They always, always come back to the toilets, don't they.

God, it's tedious.

My, the TRA's are really leaning heavily on the whole 'both sides as bad/respectful conversations' thing, aren't they?

Where was all this desire for respectful conversation to meet everyone's needs when women were being told to die in a grease fire?

We were told 'rights aren't a pie, bigot!!!'

This isn't just about toilets. I also don't want men in

Womens Prisons
Womens rape counselling groups
Womens hospital wards
Womens sports
Womens changing rooms

I also don't want men to provide intimate care to women who have asked for female carers or female doctors

A trans women could still technically be a heterosexual male, so would pose a threat surely

Are we?

So that explains why so many women aren't in DV relationships, don't get raped or attacked... not.

Personally, i go into a public loo, find a cubic, have a wee and leave, i don't ever take any notice of what the women in there look like, so long as they look vaguely female.

The threat to women, in the main, comes from heterosexual men, yet do we have thread after thread on the almost 3 women murdered each week by men in a domestic setting? no we do not, instead its a man having a piss in a female loo that enrages a few people on here.

@spannasaurus Thanks for that - were those athletes across all categories?
Did they compete in strength sports at all - powerlifting /weightlifting.

I'm just wondering if the T had stronger effects in certain sports that have a higher need for strength rather than a mix of strength/speed/skill/mobility?

I might have to go a googling or if you have any links, I would be interested in data.

Those who identify as trans men often have increased muscle profile due to the artificial testosterone as well as facial hair. So some will be at the stronger end of women's strength - not sure how far as they can't compete in strength sports due to the artificial T.

If you look at the results of the East German female athletes on T from the 80s they outperformed other female athletes but were still not near the men's results.

I think this is quite tricky.

Those who identify as trans men often have increased muscle profile due to the artificial testosterone as well as facial hair. So some will be at the stronger end of women's strength - not sure how far as they can't compete in strength sports due to the artificial T.

So.. are they more likely to be able to hurt me? That's what i'm looking at - but without evidence it seems they are within the female profile so dependent on other factors - age, height etc. I believe there is a small effect on increased aggression with artificial T in women, much smaller than in men, but it could be significant.

Then you come to visuals - someone like Buck angel is going to be surprising in the ladies, even though they are female.

I think there is an argument for some third space availability (or fourth space if we keep disability access toilets for those with disabilities) - this will be dependent on assessed need/ reasonableness - so in a large organisation/service will be reasonable - in a small one, not so much - but a small organisation may already be providing one or two mixed sex toilets.