AIBU to ask what you think should happen with Trans men?

Again and again, the focus is on toilets. The cry of 'we just need to pee!!!' which appears to have turned into 'I'll just piss all over the floor then, bigot!'

But not -

Rape crisis services
Domestic violence refuges
Single sex hospital wards
Sleeping accommodation on school trips/guide camps

Is it because those are a bit harder to justify in terms of allowing males access to avoid hurting his feelings?

Well you have a right to your opinion. But just as it's ok for you to not mind, it's ok for others to mind. If TW or TM are offended by this, that's a shame but there is nothing to stop them campaigning for third spaces or gender neutral bathrooms. Tolerance has to go both ways. Hopefully that way everybody's rights and needs are catered for.

TRA need to realise it's a question of "we can agree to disagree respectfully." I'm not sure why one group of people should have to set themselves on fire to keep another group warm.

The only shitstorm I would lob at you: it's not about toilets or changing rooms.

How would you feel about your teen daughter spending a night in a ward with men?

I really truly honestly don’t care if I have to share loos - or changing rooms even - w transwomen - or transmen. It’s a loo and there are far worse threats in the world from actual sexual predators & those predators will always find a way to assault.
It is such a non issue to me (AND i have a teen daughter). Truly.
(and i know I’m now in for a verbal shitstorm potentially, but it won’t change my mind. Just show other people’s colours and prejudice. Sorry, not sorry)

19:39

<#helpful>

I did back it up….right under the cant be arsed post…with actual facts 😱

go back and reread

If you want to be wilfully ignorant that's your perogative.

And refusal to back up your idea of the truth with - you know any actual facts, is telling and also a bit Trumpian. But have a nice evening.

Lemon I am so sorry I misread you post. I am an absolute arse, many apologies. I'm so sorry for your experiences.
I hope you've found a way to cope x

Turns out i can be arsed…who knew

The guidance also states that "in some circumstances the law also allows trans women (biological men) not to be permitted to use the men's facilities, and trans men (biological woman) not to be permitted to use the women's facilities"

When asked to clarify this, the EHRC pointed to a section of the Supreme Court ruling stating that trans men could be excluded from women's facilities "where reasonable objection is taken to their presence, for example because the gender reassignment process has given them a masculine appearance or attributes to which reasonable objection might be taken" in the context of a women-only service.

100 % not wrong the ruling says that people have to stick to their biological spaces in cases of designated single sex spaces, which in the case of trans men is women's spaces. Read the ruling. I have.
It is quite clear that trans men should not be in men only spaces but can and should use women's spaces and trans women should not be in women only spaces but can and should use men only spaces.

You are wrong

but i can’t be arsed to prove it 😀

i am sure someone will be around in a bit

I know TW are not women. I never said otherwise ? Btw I have PTSD from abuse as a child and adult, sexual and domestic. I'm sure if I met a TW in a woman's space it would affect me. That would never happen in a toilet for me as I don't use the women's or men's but I don't doubt it would affect others .

Please don’t use the made up term ‘cis’. It’s women.

I have not read this wrong you have misunderstood. All biological women can be present is single sex spaces reserved for women whether they identify as men or not. Where trans men can no longer be is in spaces designated only for men, which means biological men.
If I'm wrong, please quote me from the SC ruling as to where it says anything to the contrary of what I've said please. I read the whole document. The ruling is quite clear.

To exclude a trans man (bio woman) from a women only space would be against the law

i think you might be wrong about this bit

According to the law trans women are NOT women. You may not feel threatened by them but others do and now their presence in women only spaces can finally be called out and not before time.

The SC ruling says nowhere that trans people of either sex can EVER be excluded from the single sex spaces afforded to THEIR biological sex only that of the OTHER sex, hence what the ECHR guidance says . There is literally no confusion here I think you have misunderstood. It of course has said that trans women can be excluded from women's single sex spaces and trans men from men only spaces but each has the right to be in the space of their biolofcal natal sex. Their appearance has NOTHING to do with this right.
To exclude a trans man (bio woman) from a women only space would be against the law.

I do totally agree with you about the straw men situation though.

Transmen are women. I don't consider them much of a threat to women's spaces. That said I could understand if a TM looked like a man that could at best make women feel uncomfortable in a women only space or at worse be triggering trauma responses.

I do think it best that we all use the spaces designed for our bio sex. Less trouble caused that way. Less drama.

Youve read it wrong

they can be excluded

do i think they should be ?

no

are they ? Yes

The EHRC guidance clarifies that "in some circumstances" transwomen and transmen can be excluded from single sex spaces.

Those circstances weren't clarified but I imagine it will be to cover the fact that, where someome does, in fact, pass as the opposite sex (usually only transmen) they will be able to be excluded on the basis they appear to be male.

This will protect businesses who ask a passing transmen to leave female toilets (for example).from being sued and also prevents the situation whereby a man can enter the women's toilets claiming to be a transman (as all.the TRAs have spent the last 10 days telling us will definitely happen).

My best friend is a 'masculine presenting lesbian' but also quite clearly female - as has been every masculine presenting lesbian I've personally ever met so I think they'll be OK.

I believe this is what is called a strawman argument because biological men and women are usually recognisable whatever they are wearing. And men and women are not going to be permitted or denied entry on their ability or willingness to conrform to sterotyped ideas of 'masculinity' or 'femininity'.

Women 0don't care about transmen being in women's spaces. This is a TRA attempt at a 'gotcha' and should just be ignored.

You are entirely wrong. I have read all 88 pages of the SC ruling. Trans men cannot legally, and in my opinion should not be excluded from women's single sex spaces.
The SC ruling quite clearly states that sex is biological sex and as the biological sex of a trans man is female they are allowed all the protection of women under the Equalities Act 2010. Their presentation however masculine is absolutely irrelevant. Many lesbians are also quite masculine presenting are you suggesting they can also be excluded from women only spaces?
This sudden worry about trans men in women's spaces is absolute nonsense. They are biological women who deserve the same rights as the rest of women whether they identify as men or not.

He was very aggressive and said Transwomen were not a problem. I was truly truly shocked by those tweets. When we have a mother in prison for saying a lot less about illegal migrants ( stupidly) is serving a 30 month sentence. Yet these individuals are saying openly they would murder and torture woman.

Because they're (generally) men. Speaking up in defence of (almost exlcusively) men. Against women who they really believe ought not to he in a position of thinking they can say no men.

In a nutshell.

I suspect that was the crux of your heated debate too.

I'm going to join in. Weirdly had a "heated discussion" with a friends husband last night on this very topic. Just reading the tweets about TERFS someone posted was horrifying enough sends a very clear message to be that we do not want these individuals anywhere female spaced. And why are these people not being arrested for these posts.