AIBU to ask what you think should happen with Trans men?

I suspect that this issue will just not arise in reality, and that trans men are far more capable of judging whether they actually pass than trans women.

Apart from anything else, some trans women may have been persuaded up until now that they pass simply because people were too afraid to challenge them, whereas the same won't be true for trans men.

I'm not hand wringing. Merely pointing out that a group of women may be negatively impacted unless the guidance is very clear as to their position. They are women and therefore 'persons of interest' to feminism, regardless of whether one agrees with their choices or who they have chosen to ally with. I hope that when the guidance is provided in full there is more clarity about when women may be excluded from women's facilities, a subjective assessment of their appearance to check whether in the eyes of the beholder they are not too masculine obviously won't do. I'd also hope to see clarity about what provision is required, and for that provision to be a third space not just "Oh they just use the mens then".

Women have been accepting of butch, androgynous, tall, wide, muscular, short-haired, trouser and biker boot wearing (insert gender non-conforming adjective here) women (inc lesbians) in our sex specific services and facilities since forever. We don’t have an issue. We’re also used to seeing other ordinary women every day who happily present in all manner of ways, pronoun or identity in tow. It’s fine. We know we’re still women.

This seems to come as a shock to some men. Of course it tends to be men who most strictly police gender stereotypes and get all antsy and weird when other men don’t conform. Maybe men need to catch up and start accepting the full range of fabulousness that is the male sex, and welcome them in their own facilities?

Women of course don’t pose a risk to men’s safety, sports, social or financial status or representation in society. So on that basis the main factors to consider for where women who identify as trans go, is their own safety and causing the least amount of fuss.

I'm really sorry Rufus you were completely right and I was wrong. Took me a while to find the relevant bit but got there in the end. It is section 221 of the SC ruling. This section of the ruling is imo in legal terms "perverse" and totally contradicts the rest of the ruling. How the Supreme Court didn't see this is absolutely beyond me.
Nonetheless I berated you for saying this and wouldn't stop banging on about being right when I wasn't . Now thoroughly ashamed. Will try to do better.

But without the size and strength of men.

An interesting and not at all unreasonable way to look at things.

I agree 100%. This is a terrible part of this ruling, the lack of appropriate detail in such a long judgement is totally unacceptable.

Oh yeah, and you can add to that the continued demands and defiance.

They can worry about themselves.

Transmen who don't pass (who will be the majority) will still be able to use the women's.

The guidance is quite clear that no transperson will be put in a position where they have no facilities to use.

I think at the point at which there's nothing left to say but express concern for passing transmen who will be able to use the men's as they wish, it's probably best for everyone to wait and see what the final guidance actually says.

And, tbh, after all the shit, grief, threats of, and actual, violence over the past 10 years, I'm not going to spend too much time worrying about the impact on the people who would have been celebrating in the streets and calling for a national day of trans liberation if the ruling had gone the other way. They certainly wouldn't have been handwringing on a Saturday night about the way that ruling would have impacted women.

We all make choices in life and we all live with the consequences of those choices.

I understand what you're saying but it's largely academic.

Yes, in theory, those women are being discriminated against but, in reality, likely to be the only ones in the trans camp to get what they really want - to use opposite sex spaces without issue.

If anything, you could argue that women and transmen are the only.ones to have secured the outcome we/they wanted.

I agree with this. I find this part of the guidance leaves me conflicted. Because in reality, the 6 foot, muscular, intimidating transman is a unicorn. The reality is much more likely to be vulnerable young women and teen girls who wrongly believe they pass, and so will believe themselves unable to use either facility. I understand there had to be some means to mitigate for the very remote possibility a transman could cause distress, but I wish there had been more detail about the circumstances, rather than the wording which indicates their ability to use women's facilities will be down to a subjective judgement as to how well they pass.

You are aware that all the testosterone that they must take does change their characters somewhat, makes them more aggressive and prone to intense anger, it was a very much developed male-ish personalities

TM are women. They can use womens spaces. Their operation is akin to a weird floppy skin extension, more fool them….but they cannot do anything much with it to anyone and I doubt they want to, given that they are women, and women are not statistically dangerous in that sense.

OK, so what you believe only really applies in your house then, doesn't it?

Not in public life.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't have a problem sharing a toilet with a trans person in my own house either. Mainly because if I didn't think they were safe they wouldn't be in my house in the first place.

I am NOT consenting on your behalf!! I am saying what I believe. Not what you should do or believe.

It's great that you feel safe with them. (Although you might change your mind if you met someone like Katie Dolatowski.)

Many of us don't, and you don't have the right to consent on our behalf.

I take your point but yet again it is women being discriminated against, albeit ones who don't consider themselves women. This part is really out of kilter with the rest of the ruling.
Passing trans men being told they can't use either sex's spaces is not reasonable.

Actually - I take that back. Scratch the “sorry”

Sorry but fuck OFF! What “mantras”?!? Sooooo predictably unproductive and idiotic

It’s just not a popular opinion

loads of posters have said similars over the last few days, it might not be popular but it certainly isn’t unusual on mumsnet at least

Gawd, you are determined to start a debate from me that I am not having or engaging in.
Doesn’t mean I can’t. Means I won’t & “no means no” to you here. Bye!!

Just keep on chanting the mantras...

Nope. But am entitled to- as everyone else - to my opinion & standing up for what I believe etc. It’s just not a popular opinion, and that’s fine. Won’t change what I know, experience and believe to be true.

Shrill is not mysogynist - you’re grasping at nothing.
And not being particularly nuanced or intersting. Predictable though? Yup!

You seem very keen to have a barrage lobbed at you. If you feel safe you feel safe.