AIBU to ask what you think should happen with Trans men?

LOL. Many, many trans men absolutely do not look like or move like women, and will have had surgery that has constructed something which looks very much like a penis and testicles. You only notice the ones that do still look like women. You don't notice the ones who look like men because - newsflash - they look like men.

I work with a trans man. His team mates knew he was trans, but nobody in my department did until he mentioned it in a ED&I workshop where it was relevant. He is around 5'10", a body builder, has a full beard and a deep voice. He definitely doesn't 'move like a woman' and he certainly doesn't look like one.

I also have a friend, not trans, who is a very androgynous-looking lesbian. She is regularly mistaken for a man, and she isn't particularly tall, isn't especially well-built and doesn't have any facial hair. She has been confronted angrily by other women in women's toilets on several occasions because they think she's a man. Fortunately, she's an ex-Army officer and not easily intimidated, but she has been physically shoved by women in pub toilets before and been publicly stopped by a security guard in front of loads of people when trying to go into the loos at our local shopping centre. If people aren't going to accept that an androgynous looking woman is a woman, they are not going to accept the large percentage of trans men who look a hell of a lot more like men that she does.

The Supreme Court ruling wasn't about who can use what toilet. It was to protect women and women only spaces. The same thing that women have fought to protect for however many tens/hundreds of years. It's not taking a step back, it's moving forward and showing women that they do actually matter, their rights are still important.

Why are trans women making it all about toilets anyway?

Chaz Bono has a penis, or a semblance of one perhaps.
Most transmen don't, I would wager. And have not been taking testosterone for years.
Why on earth should we be framing policy for Chaz Bono?

FFS, common sense!

The few transmen and transwomen who have undergone a full surgical ‘transformation’ and pass for the other sex will likely continue to use the bathrooms of this sex, and nobody will know.

However, the ones who just wanted to be able to say ‘I am a woman’ despite very clearly not being one will now (hopefully) have to use the men’s.
No penis in women-only spaces. Why is it so hard to understand?
(and obviously same for women so desperate to use the men’s, even though I doubt there are many)

Exactly. I can search for PLENTY of images, which quite frankly are the stuff of nightmares, of men who believe that putting on a cheap nylon wig, fetish gear and a bit of lippy (not forgetting the flesh coloured fake breast plate) makes them pass as a woman! There are so many I could share on here, all in the name of self fucking ID!

Here is a video of him, speaking about addiction rather than being trans. He’s Chaz Bono by the way, son of Sonny and Cher. Would you think he was female if you didn’t know?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WGmFKiduuCI&pp=ygUJY2hheiBib25v

I discovered the Kiwi Farms thread on SRS surgeries and it completely changed my view on the issue.

Fucking butchers.

Trans men are natal women and therefore less likely to commit sexually motivated crimes. Idc where trans men pee because they're not a potential threat.

But anyway. Trans people, both men and women, quietly going about their day, will use their preferred choice, as they have for decades, without issue.

A pre-transition/obviously non-passing trans man (or biological woman) will not want to use the men's toilet anyway, for their own safety. Because men are the fucking problem to everyone, trans or not.

All this will do is prevent any random dude from saying 'I'm a woman' to enter our spaces without challenge. Most people won't care if someone who has been trans and peacefully using the women's loo for the past 40 years continues to do so.

I have a question. I am not being goady, I genuinely want to know. If a bio male is taking female hormones, can they actually do anything with their penis? Do the hormones affect the way it functions, sexually?

Yes, this. The toilets are almost a red herring - or at the very least, they’re a bonus, a silver lining. The importance of the judgement is that single sex spaces like women’s prisons, women’s rape centres, women’s hospital wards will all remain single sex. We might not be able to police toilets to keep all passing transwomen out, but now we can stop the Isla Brysons being incarcerated with vulnerable women.

And as for transmen? They’re women so I couldn’t care less if they access single sex spaces alongside me. Appearance doesn’t matter. As usual, TRAs get it upside down.

All the gender stereotypes. Apparently because I'm 6 foot, with muscles and don't shave my legs, I may be up for being questioned in a toilet (nothing new to be honest but can imagine it's going to get worse).

I have some very tall female friends who are on the more masculine end of the female spectrum.

None has ever been mistaken for a man. By anyone.

trans women and the impact that the ruling has on their rights to access female only spaces

They haven't lost any rights, it was never their right, it was their entitlement. Let's be accurate.

Let’s be honest, if they genuinely pass, they’re going to use the men’s regardless of the judgment. If they don’t pass, then they’re visibly women so what’s the issue? If they don’t pass and want to put themselves at risk in the men’s, that’s up to them, and it’s up to men to police if they want it male-only
for their dignity.

As for “won’t someone think of the butch cis women that are definitely going to be abused now?”, it’s utter tosh. More butch/masculine looking women have been occasionally challenged in the women’s for decades and, while a bit embarrassing, all that ends up happening is she says “I’m a woman”, it’s bleeding obvious from her voice/manner (it’s much easier to tell in person than from an image) that she’s female, everyone feels a bit awkward and then gets on with their day. Do the TRAs genuinely think the only reason butch women are safe in the women’s facilities is because of the TRA misinterpretation of the EA which we didn’t share in the first place, and now it’s been clarified all hell will break loose and we’re going to start accusing every woman with short hair and shirt of being a bloke? Give over. We know they’re women and we are not a risk to each other…on account of us all being women.

The amount of calls I’ve seen on Reddit etc for “big, burly trans men” to go into the women’s and “see how much the TERFs like it” is staggering, and conveniently ignoring the fact that GC people see transmen as women so of course they’re welcome in female spaces.

Yet again it’s men calling for women to be chucked under the bus, except this time it’s men wanting to use gender non-conforming women (ie transmen) as a tool to embarrass, shame, and scare women into allowing males to use women’s facilities because they didn’t get their way.

The fact that TRAs have muddied the waters so much with Stonewall law doesn’t mean that the way things used to work, where people policed facilities based on common sense and without fear of being arrested for transphobic harassment for merely querying someone’s presence or leaving so as not to be alone with them, works just fine.

It’s really really not complicated. Toilets, single sex wards in hospitals, some sports and jails are segregated by sex. Mens facilities are for men and women’s facilities are for women. Transwomen are a group of men not a type of woman.

This thread is going to fill up with pix of hairy muscly transmen now, that posters are combing the net to find 🙄

IRL most people conform to biological sex. Policy is framed for the majority. Not the tiny minority that defy the trend.

🤦🏻‍♀️ OK, now slower for the persistently obtuse...

If a person genuinely and unquestionably passes as the opposite sex and walks into the toilet for the opposite sex, goes for a wee, washes their hands and checks their hair on the way put, no one is going to know, suspect or care in reality.

This will mostly.likely only apply to TM who would probably, in those circumstances, continue to use the men's both to avoid the possible conflict and because most women wouldn't relish the idea of making other women feel uncomfortable. Even TM.

So no one will be conducting genital inspections. Your pants are safe.

But.

If a man is hanging around the toilets, he can be challenged. No, women won't do this themselves but places often have security guards. Or she can just leave without being at risk of disciplinary action, say, at work because the TW she walked away from says she made him feel unsafe by taking action that made her feel safer (this has happened).

But toilets are only a small part of it.

Trans is a mental disorder to which society should not be pandering. We don't tell anorexics that it's OK to starve themselves. We don't tell self-harmers that it's fine to cut themselves. Why should we pander to the extraordinarily self-mutilating delusion than is trans?

Generally agree, but here I disagree. It is profoundly important to me, for example, that Muslim women or sexual assault survivors etc feel comfortable in changing rooms and toilets whatever the real risk is.

MIL is around 6ft and not a fan of shaving anything
As far as I am aware she has never been accused of being a man

If you brought a photo of that person into a womens toilet I may well be unsure
Bring the actual person and yes, I would know

Trans identified women don’t have penises. They might get challenged in the ladies but that’s no reason to throw away all other women’s rights to privacy, dignity and safety. It’s usually fairly obvious that they’re women

Oh well, women and girls have been raped in safe spaces by men pretending to be women. But by all means obsess about side eyes.
We cant legislate for a tiny minority.

If I break down the statistics on how many Trans people there are vs how many I see on an average day I am pretty confident I am spotting over 90% of them.
Just because nobody points and screams "MAN/WOMAN" at them its not the same as passing

So if this person entered a women’s toilet you were in you’d know straightaway they were female?

As I said (nothing new), I already have been. And more often get serious side eye.