To be shocked by a transwoman guest on Jeremy Vine today asking a female caller what sex she is - and whether she’s “been tested?”

Whilst I am very sorry you have such clearly masculine features, in my 45 years as a woman I have never ever encountered anyone like this. I imagine I am not the only one on the thread. So yes, in a medical world you would be ignored in favour of the greater need. That's life. I had to have an ovary removed because my cyst was "0.2 mm too small to be operated on" and I had an eptopic pregnancy because it blocked the egg in the tube which got fertilised. That has affected me for years and largely scuppered any chance of having more kids for me. I know what rules can do to a person's life. It sucks but maybe use the bathroom before you go out. It's a 5min of awkwardness or thinking ahead situation.

And did they wish you harm? You would probably assume I was male bodied by the way if you saw me in a pub toilet, especially if I’ve had a drink because i forget to make myself smaller sometimes.

Ok great - so I’ve already established my voice is low and when upset I sound gruff. If I artificially made an effort to speak in a high pitch I would sound fake and therefore like I was hiding something. So now, not only have you made me feel awful (you may feel this is justifiable, I disagree but that’s ok), you have also alerted other people to my existence and put me at risk of further harm and also alerted security that a woman in the toilets is washing her hands. You have now alerted a man (assuming the security guard is male) to my existence and presumably your desire is he approaches me on your behalf and challenges me further? Otherwise why are you alerting him? I’m just trying to understand what your desired outcome is here.

I don’t think you should approach me as I’m washing my hands and leaving the toilets even politely, no. If I was doing anything even remotely suspicious then yes, approach politely. ‘Hi I’ve noticed you’ve been in here a while, are you in the right toilet?’ Then I’d know you’re approaching me because I’ve done something other than exist to arouse you suspicions and can then feel like at least I have some control over whether or not I’m abused again in the future.

No. The ‘only a few’ is not relevant in my view. I have been to regional areas in pubs and still encountered male people with transgender identities who were using the female toilets.

The chances of a male bodied person being in the female toilets is already minuscule, even less so that that male bodied person means you harm, so I don’t buy the idea that you wouldn’t feel the need to challenge is less trans women existed, there’s already so few.

“A trans woman would also likely say ‘yes’. What do you do next and what do you feel you’ve achieved so far?”

I have had an extra bit of information to assess from hearing a voice and more time to work out whether the person in front of me is male or female.

If I consider the person is male, as I have been abused by males with transgender identities before, I will leave. I might whisper to others in the queue that I think there may be a male in the toilets so they can make their own decision. I will alert security and let them know.

You making yourself ‘invisible’ is not relevant. I am sorry you are in this situation. Call out abusive people by all means. But please stop telling female people to not challenge people if they are not doing something they you personally consider alarming.

I have been very often mistaken as male until I was a young adult with long hair.

“A random woman comes up behind me and says ‘are you in the correct toilet”

So are you now saying that we should not even ask politely?

That’s not the maths - the maths is you would rather cause hurt/ harm to thousands of women on the off chance one might be male. The number of masculine women is far, far greater than the number of trans women who mean you harm. I am one of the 51% and you don’t feel any need to protect me.

My position is that I would rather protect 51% of the population than the 0.1%.
It's what happens in healthcare - you can't "save" everyone.

No, but I think that periods and childbirth give you a straight A* in the Woman Test. I don't know what the other grade boundaries are.

So, women who don’t have periods or haven’t given birth aren’t women? I’m sure that’ll come as news to them.

No I haven't been tested as a Woman but I have been impregnated by a Man. Twice. Is that sufficient confirnation?

Well yes I passed a test called having periods and giving birth. Not sure why it's a bad question: it's a silly question

No one should be abusive. And, of course, call someone a pervert is abusive if they are not acting in that way.

However, someone politely asking someone if they are in the correct toilet is not abuse as you say. People looking at another person with concern is not abuse.

So, yes. Women should challenge anyone who they feel may not be female in that space. And wouldn’t it be really nice if we had the confidence that no more male people would be there at all so we never felt the need to ask?

“If I was in any way causing alarm then absolutely, come and ask me if I’m female.”

I don’t believe any female person should wait until someone is causing alarm to ask someone. That would be a mistake.

Male people with sex offence history too often show a long history of not being caught or challenged in their build up to committing serious offence. This type of thinking allows that.

Any male being in single sex space that is not for them is transgressing boundaries to their own benefit. Just being there should be raising the alarm in people’s mind. This is the success of the campaign to lower boundaries. Some people don’t recognise when their boundaries are being breached and when they should be alarmed.

No one should be abusive. And, of course, call someone a pervert is abusive if they are not acting in that way.

However, someone politely asking someone if they are in the correct toilet is not abuse as you say. People looking at another person with concern is not abuse.

So, yes. Women should challenge anyone who they feel may not be female in that space. And wouldn’t it be really nice if we had the confidence that no more male people would be there at all so we never felt the need to ask?

Ok? I’m GC, it doesn’t mean I tie myself up in knots on the internet about the language everyone uses and I firmly believe it’s a massive distraction from the actual point.

I’ll state it as clearly as I can:

I don’t believe the SC ruling protects women from men who mean them harm and that these men will always find a way to access female spaces to harm women.

I believe the SC ruling is just and the correct outcome.

I don’t believe we should be habitually ‘challenging’ people we don’t think look female enough in toilets if their behaviour is typical, avoidant and none confrontational. My personal experience of this has defined my entire life, and I believe the risk of harm outweighs the potential for good.

I believe in biological sex, and I also believe everyone is free to wear what they like and be called whatever they like in society, but that someone’s gender presentation should not afford them any legal rights or accesses reserved for the opposite sex.

Im not arguing that male bodies belong in female spaces, im arguing that the chances of you encountering a trans woman who means you harm are minuscule compared to the chances you will encounter either a trans woman who does not mean you harm, or overwhelmingly more likely, a woman who has traits you perceive to be masculine, like me.

If that doesn’t make me GC then.. ok? I’m not sure kicking me and my views out of yet another tent matters at this point? I’m not feminine enough for some women to consider me a female, I’m not critical enough for some women to consider me gender critical, is there any other clubs you’d like to exclude me from or are we ok now?

It wouldn’t really because some women don’t have periods or give birth (and they are not trans women)

Not what I’ve said. I’ve said challenging someone who is doing nothing other than existing is abusive, especially if challenging them means calling them a pervert while they wash their hands for no other reason than you thinking they don’t look female enough.

I have never once been challenged politely. No one has ever come up to me and said ‘excuse me, I’m just concerned you might be a man, can you confirm you’re female?’. That might be slightly better although still a knife to the heart in all likelihood. How people actually approach is to make a snide remark with absolute certainty that they know I am a man. They don’t ask.

I said in an earlier post, I just hope women challenge me kindly if they do still feel the need to challenge me more after the SC ruling, but my experience so far has been horrific.

I completely disagree that women shouldn't challenge anyone in the women's toilets. Keep your head down ladies, ignore a possible breach of your spaces and boundaries - no. Women have the right to speak out. The duty even.

And I am sorry for your past experiences but you don't know what other women have gone through. It's not fair to try to use them to shut down the debate.

I’m not suggesting we make men unchallengeable. All I’m suggesting is if someone is quietly washing their hands and leaving the communal area of the toilets having not interacted with you or anyone else, maybe don’t shout at them that they’re a pervert? If I was hanging around, loitering, staring, breathing near you, glancing at you or trying to interact in any way then yes, absolutely challenge if you feel safe doing so. That way, I have a choice and a way to avoid being abused - I can avoid you (like I always do) and trust that you’ll avoid me, too. Right now though all the heat in this debate means I can avoid you as much as possible and still end up being abused which is harassment. I shouldn’t have to make myself as invisible as possible and feel fearful when I use women’s toilets and NEVER did until about 2015. Now though it’s an awful aspect of my life and it’s being driven by women who feel completely compelled to abuse me on the off chance I might be trans. That is not ok and you’re not ‘sorry’ for my experience when you clearly feel calling a stranger a pervert for no reason is entirely justified.

When I’ve been challenged, not once have I given anyone any cause for alarm. I’ve not even been looking in their general direction. I’ve been behaving like anyone else in the toilets (probably avoiding eye contact more, honestly) and yet your argument is it’s absolutely fine for women to abuse me and I shouldn’t be afforded any protection from abuse or right to live my life quietly, because my crime is I happen to not look like a woman to some other women. Your chances of coming across an actual trans woman in the toilets are far, far less than coming across a masculine woman.

Also it’s not just words and therefore harmless. I’ve tried to kill myself 4 times in 10 years (pre-children) because I’ve felt so completely helpless and cast out. I’ve felt I don’t fit anywhere and that I will have to put up with relentless abuse from women for the rest of my life. I even had a turn presenting fully as male and living ‘as a man’ for a bit to make my life easier but it felt so completely wrong.

When I had my first child it changed things because I mattered less and my kids matters more and I needed to stay alive for them, but the abuse has gotten so much worse recently and I’m terrified the SC ruling means it’s going to get worse again.

I just wonder at what point we decide abusing someone not giving us any reason for concern with their behaviour in a public toilet is more of a risk to them, than they pose to you and at what point it tips from genuine concern into just bullying?