To be shocked by a transwoman guest on Jeremy Vine today asking a female caller what sex she is - and whether she’s “been tested?”

Where’s the phobia in my post?
trans women exist, of course. They are men. The SC has just confirmed that they aren’t allowed to use female spaces. Toilets designated female are, fairly obviously, female spaces. They should keep out. Danger is irrelevant.

Of course the woman has to shut her mouth, wait her turn. The men and those magical legions of bio women who look so male that no one can tell them apart come first.
Don't you dare mention periods, pregnancies, childbirth etc as identifying characteristics of Femaleness either in case the you irretrievably damage feelings of those tiny number of women who cannot. The whole discourse around this 'identification' question is meant to gaslight women and we see experts in this thread doing so.

People will find a way round all safeguards - should we just abandon them? Should we abandon speed limits, let random adults wander unchecked through schools? Should we abandon border security? I trust you leave your front door wide open at night because, you know, burglars will always find away.

Why are you so desperate to allow members of the opposite sex into a single sex space when to be single sex it has proved to be proportionate to the dignity, privacy and safety to the women using it. Why do you think your wishes trump the highest court in the land. Do you have a lack of respect for the rule of law in all situations

No, I am not for allowing men in to female spaces. I do however believe that trans women exist and are not harmful to other women as a baseline. So whilst there will be isolated events in which opportunistic men will use it as a ‘way in’ to commit crime, this does not mean that we have to develop a phobia towards every case and police and scrutinise at every possible opportunity.

All I want to know is, what is the end game? As a woman, I've never felt safe. It doesn't matter where we go, we're always on our guard.
Just how far will this go? Do we segregate ourselves completely?
Should we go as far as carrying ID?
What about genetic testing? Although this would pose a problem for women born with XY chromosomes (Swyer syndrome).

There is nothing stopping a rapist intent on raping going ahead and raping. We find ways to reduce the risk. Hence single sex spaces. Males who should not be in these spaces stick out, they are more likely to attract notice. This is part of safeguarding and part of how we keep women and children safe.

So a woman should have to wait about until her space is vacated by a trespasser? ‘Men will find a way to rape’ is such a poor excuse for letting them into places without question. As someone else said, either here or on one of the other threads, people will find a way to speed too - should we just abandon speed cameras and speed limits?

Very horrific crimes, and I’m obviously very sympathetic to the victims but as @Shegotanology said - they will always find a way. What’s stopping a man sneaking in to the toilet when nobody’s looking, or doing this in plain sight on an escalator, or a lift, or a car park? The Hijab point is one I’ve not considered - so will give it some thought. Although there is nothing wrong in waiting a moment to use the mirror once somebody has left, if you feel that they are not what you believe is a woman.

Hard agree.

Well, quite. I bet he doesn’t ask for a certificate before knowing which people to fancy.

@commonsense61 We already had that. Perverts and rapists will always find a way.

@Fannycrevasse I never thought of that. My sister can't have children. She's no less of a woman than any other. Thanks for the reminder.

Can we not hinge our proof that we’re female on childbirth, please? Although I’ve been lucky enough to have 2 children, so many in my community who have hormonal imbalances will never be able to have children and that doesn’t mean they are any less women.

If I am asked the question again I will answer ‘yes’ and nothing more. I’m not sure what happens next if you ask me to prove it, do you?

@Ponderingwindow Yes, anyone can say those words.

It’s such an easy challenge to rebut that I just don’t care. “Yes, I am confirmed female. I have given birth to another human being. Moving on”.

And this is where my views on this become complex because I understand the uncomfortableness that women will experience in a place like a changing room, where a lot of the time you are less clothed and in a more vulnerable position. But I’ve also been to a pool changing room where women have no shame and will happily let their boobs fall out in the communal area, as opposed to changing fully in a cubicle, so for any of those scenarios I would too move.

Toilets I have more of a tolerance for - you use them more often, you walk in to a cubicle where you close the door and you leave. There’s no reason to be so overprotective of that space, which is what a lot of those debates are about.

I feel this again strays into making women the problem. It's a recurring theme.

@borntobequiet What do you know of their background?

There’s a transwoman who likes to use the changing rooms at my gym. I changed my routine slightly so I wouldn’t have to encounter him. What I know of his background makes me particularly wary. (The way he strews his belongings around is an additional issue, but not trans related, I think.)

Young teenage girls use these changing rooms unsupervised on occasion, and I wouldn’t want them to encounter him. He’s in his sixties, and quite a big, tall bloke.

Nor do I. But I am naturally aware of all the people around me. And I notice when something doesn’t seem as expected.

In saying that, I consider myself good at identifying the sex of humans. I ignore all the clothes. I don’t even look at hair styles. It is movement that I notice.

Obviously some people don’t notice. But it is not correct to assume that others don’t and dismiss their needs by questioning their perception ability because you, personally, don’t notice things.

I get that, and I’ve been to places that are arguably very diverse. My point is, a lot of this is in people’s mindsets. If you enter an area purposefully looking out for an issue, you will find it. If a man wants to commit SA, he will find a way of dressing as a woman and weaving his way in to a toilet whether he claims that he is a trans woman or a woman. Most of the time though, whoever is using this space will be there for a legitimate reason - to pee.

I think it depends where you live. Where I am the city centre has multiple places that have repurposed women's toilets (and sometimes ONLY women's toilets) to be open to all. I doubt many women have felt the ability to question it even if they wanted to. One place I remember at the tail end of covid, which had kept the illusion of mens and womens, one day had multiple trans identified males going in and out following a convention so we decided on balance to leave as the staff didn't give a shit.

When I think about challenging openly I usually think of the little shopping centre toilets I mentioned earlier where someone got caught filming, because they're small and at the end of a corridor. It's a known issue there. The pp who said most women would just leave is right - but that's not an acceptable solution imo.

Edit - sorry I should clarify - not questioning anyone's gender but challenging the presence of males/men. Two slightly different things I think.

@TY78910 Yes. Just so that we know our place.

Ah yes, like our very own UK concentration camp.