To be shocked by a transwoman guest on Jeremy Vine today asking a female caller what sex she is - and whether she’s “been tested?”

The argument of “men don’t need to enter women’s spaces to hurt women, they will do it anyway” is completely illogical.

If you take that stance then I presume you are in favour of removing all sex segregation completely? Because by your own argument if men want to rape women they will just do it anyway, so what’s the point in trying to protect vulnerable women from men at all? Why
not have men and women share prison cells? If a man wants to rape a woman he doesn’t need to go to prison to do it, he will do it anyway .

Would you also be in favour of removing gun control laws? Since if people want to shoot someone they will get a gun anyway? Removing driving licences since people who aren’t safe to drive will do so anyway?

It’s the most ridiculous argument and I see it parroted everywhere and it is deeply misogynistic, as it is not applied to any other crime.

We all agree that taking steps to prevent crime
and protect vulnerable people are necessary even if we can’t completely prevent that crime and even if those measures inconvenience or upset some people, so why is this suddenly not worth doing just because it inconveniences/upsets trans women? Because validating and appeasing biological men is seen as more important than the safety of women.

Sexual predators are very rarely men who grab women or children off the street, they are very often highly manipulative men who go to significant effort to seek access to vulnerable people while not appearing to be a threat.

Mass interest isn’t the same as mass panic. Who is panicking? Why do you think it’s a panic? There's been an important clarification of women’s rights, of course it’s being discussed. No panic.
People may well be worried about a lot of what Trump and Musk have been up to - if you see coverage of this as ‘panic’ too then it tells me a fair bit about your position, politically speaking.

It also makes prosecution for assault more difficult. If men are allowed in the women's toilets, the case rests on his word against the woman's as to whether he committed an assault while in there. The woman's case is significantly strengthened when the man has no legitimate reason under law to be in there in the first place, and can no longer claim one.

Yup, you are absolutely right.

Most of us are in agreement on this thread that people of nefarious purpose will use any method they can find, in order to ogle, assault and rape. And that nobody can know what is inside somebody's head. And that it is impossible to police those who would transgress boundaries.

The only logical thing to do is to shrug our shoulders and let whatever happens, happen.

Now we KNOW men are not allowed in by law, any woman can go to the police or manager of the establishment and alert them that a man is in the loo and they need to get them out.

My meno brain is having a hard time with understanding how this law will work in the long run. Thanks to all those who respectfully put their arguments across.

@Kucinghitam Rapists and perverts will always find a way. I would like to know how far we go in order to protect ourselves?

I couldn't care less about your outrage.

I quite like the "men will use any excuse/method to ogle, assault and rape anyway, so let's just shrug our shoulders" argument. It is (probably unintentionally) elegant in demonstrating exactly why women are correct to not want to share single-sex spaces with men.

because they are deliberately trying to obfuscate it and are in spaces where they shouldn’t be

“They” are not trying to obfuscate anything. they are simply trying to live a private , dignified and safe life, participate in society and use services in ways that are compatible with that, exactly the same as you and me and most other members of society

@SmegmaCausesBV All I would like to know is how we enforce this. All I've read is that you can always tell. That isn't my experience though.

That's no argument to embolden them by allowing them in

😂 of course you’d say I’m being misogynistic for pointing out that 100s of threads and discussions on radio and TV are mass panic - in the same way as I’d say it about the coverage of Trump and Musk and countless hypothetical scenarios that are being discussed currently.

My point is about policing it - why do we feel we have to scan everyone in the toilet and say ‘you don’t look like you belong here’.

A law hasn’t been passed recently, it’s just been clarified. There’s no ‘mass panic’. Nobody is panicking. They are saying that men should comply with the law. Seems a bit misogynistic to say women standing up for their rights under law are ‘panicking’ wouldn’t you say? Trans women (and other men) should simply stay out of women’s spaces as the law requires.

@commonsense61 We can. How do you enforce it though?

Trans women are questioned on their sex because they are deliberately trying to obfuscate it and are in spaces where they shouldn’t be. Fairly easy for them to avoid I’d say. It’s much more difficult for @Fannycrevasse because she isn’t doing those things. I’d say her evidence suggests the reason it’s happening to her is entirely because of entitled trans women insisting on intruding on women’s spaces. Maybe put the blame where it should be.

This entire thread was about proving women using these spaces are in fact women. Whether I believe in the law that was passed or not, or whether anyone else on this thread isn’t really the point I was making in the first place. It’s about the mass panic that’s developed right now and people feeling the need to vet and police who is in the toilet at any given time.

Exactly.

@MyHeartyCoralSnail Laws reflected societal bias and power structures. Youve only got to look at slavery to know that we don't always get it right.

Toilets I have more of a tolerance for - you use them more often, you walk in to a cubicle where you close the door and you leave. There’s no reason to be so overprotective of that space, which is what a lot of those debates are about

This is a great point - yes, really. Men's toilets also have cubicles for privacy. So why exactly are some men so fixated on going in the women's toilets instead? What earthly need is there to be so prissy about it? If they just want to have a wee and leave, why does it matter what genitals are on the other side of the door?

Silly me, it's because women are a resource to exploit for validation at best and often a lot worse.

this does not mean that we have to develop a phobia towards every case and police and scrutinise at every possible opportunity.

Here comes the scold is for the non-existent crimes of women.