To be shocked by a transwoman guest on Jeremy Vine today asking a female caller what sex she is - and whether she’s “been tested?”

Isn't it mad how when it comes to woman it's always made out to be incredibly difficult? From the boundaries drawn around our facilities and the services built from the ground up, to misogyny as a hate crime. It's always oh so difficult.

Those spaces pertain specifically TO the privacy, dignity and safety of the people they exist for

You can’t allow biological men to self identify as women without compromising the dignity, safety and privacy of all women. Women are not shields for men who feel they are in danger from other men. There needs to be a third space for those men.

It is simply not possible to allow biological men to enter women’s spaces such as changing rooms, refuges and prisons and not compromise our safety due to the inherent risks we face from men.

that makes no sense when those spaces pertain to fundamental public services.
Also these kinds of attitudes do nothing for anyone’s privacy or dignity. This cartoon helps illustrate .

Do you walk around with your fucking eyes and ears shut?

This bullying, intimidation type of shit is infuriating and disgusting. It's definitely only going to hurt the trans cause, if this starts happening more often.

For the many, not the few. Wasn't that a Labour slogan before they all went loopy?

I'd say women's privacy, dignity and safety trumps everyone else's within the confines of our own designated spaces.

Nobody’s dignity or privacy trumps anyone else’s. That’s not how society works.

I note and It’s interesting that in this instance you used the phrase “observed female at birth”, as apposed to the chromosome dogma people seem to go in for these days.

Not even legal boundaries, just the basic, reasonable requests of women and a straightforward 'no'. It's incoherent to simultaneously teach girls to uphold their own boundaries and to suppress collective ones.

At least the Overton Window for this discussion has mostly moved on from "male people can invade female single-sex spaces because TRSOH StoneLaw and female people should silently budge up" to "Urgh, fine, male people probably shouldn't invade female single-sex spaces, but <handwringing> we cannot possibly police this so gosh those male people will invade anyway"...

It's progress of a sort.

That can only really be determined by the success in holding entirely reasonable boundaries.

Yes it is. The law says women’s spaces are for women, meaning those observed female at birth. This is to protect the privacy, dignity and safety of women. That’s it. It’s that simple.
I have sympathy for people with gender dysphoria, but their privacy, dignity and safety doesn’t trump that of women.

Currently a lot less is stopping men than used to because the boundaries of acceptability have been blurred. If it's going to happen anyway, which is the endless implication, then why the hell are people making it so much easier to do?

To answer your question in the final paragraph, women have become hyper vigilant because men have transgressed their boundaries by entering women only spaces. As has been said before on this thread, that’s an act which in and of itself is threatening. Doesn’t matter what they do once in the space. Entering shows they have no care at all for legal boundaries. I’m pretty vigilant about people who are happy to transgress boundaries just because they feel like it. Aren’t you?

Thank you for enlightening me by pointing out that this is a much wider discussion that goes beyond toilets. As I’ve mentioned before, my opinions are not black and white on this and my view on transgender people is not the point of the conversation I’ve engaged in. The discussion upthread was about toilets, so toilets is what I’ve discussed.

It’s not a new law it’s clarification of an old one, which worked perfectly well until TRAs decided to advise people to ignore it. Men can decide to follow the law. Problem solved.

You seem not to want to do anything to reduce risk. How far would you go?

Who says we are? We now have the right to challenege though. Do remember that toilets aren’t the be all and end all of this debate, though TRAs would like you to think they are. It’s much harder to justify men being in women’s prisons, hospital wards, sport and refuges. Should we not challenge men there either?

Life just isn’t that simple I’m afraid

There are lots of laws we can’t enforce 100% of the time. All of them probably. That’s not a reason not to have them, and it doesn’t mean they don’t make people safer even with a less than complete level of enforcement. Men should keep out of women’s spaces, then there’s no need for enforcement. At least now a challenge can be made if they don’t without the woman being called a bigot.

They are obfuscating their male sex. They are entitled to, of course, and it may well be to the benefit of their mental health. I have no problem with it at all until they try to use this as a way to access women only spaces. At that point they’ll be asked to prove their right to be there - which they can’t. No need for them to be challenged at all, just keep out of the spaces. Some are just trying to live a private, dignified and safe life too - that’s why they don’t want men in their spaces. Interesting that you place trans women’s right to privacy, dignity and safety above that of women.

I’ve not once said that women’s toilets should have massive posters on the doors advertising ‘men welcome’.

There is a poster upthread that has been born a woman, is a woman, but is mistaken for a man. To what extent is she required to prove that she is a woman that is satisfactory to people and more importantly, if they feel she does not pass the woman test, what are they going to do about it? Call the police?

The law is there, it is what it is and nobody’s views can change that at this present time. I am asking why are people so hyper aware and hyper vigilant of who is in the bathroom in general (unless of course they give you cause for concern with their behaviour)