To think that social standards have slipped because people don’t feel shame anymore?

I think every generation has a version of this. For my parents, having me dressed well and keeping my hair tidy was more important than me feeling comfortable. I had to go to Uni to prove their worth. They didn't want to be judged by the neighbours and society and having good manners was part of that. For my grandparents it was more extreme (Catholic irish), they would have rejected their children completely if they got pregnant outside of marriage or were gay. Their need to keep up appearances overrode the well being of their kids and their love for them. All of these things sound crazy and unthinkable now. But we have other things we fear, things we do to conform. People don't vocalise if they have traditional views on family or are anti abortion for example as they are torn to shreds. Religious people get sneered at so they keep opinions to themselves. We don't leave our kids playing freely all day or walking home alone for fear of judgement more than fear of anything happening. We say we are so liberal and open minded these days but actually we are just all conforming to a different set of rules and we are just as narrow minded as we ever were.

I just don’t get this.

l had my first in 1993. No pressure to get married.
2nd in 2006 no pressure to get married.

Maybe l just didn’t care what people thought? I don’t know. Most parents weren’t married when my dc were born. Or very few that l knew.

Well yeah but do you want to live like that?

I am 71 and I remember those things.

I wonder if it's something to do with the loss of close knit communities. I grew up in a small village and knew every family on my street. Very few people left/moved away so the community was close and the children played together. My parents went to church on Sunday in their Sunday best - it was unheard of not to dress up. My mother would not allow us to eat in public - we came home for drinks and biscuits. No one did their washing on Sundays. There was an unwritten set of rules, if my Mum caught another child swearing she would tell them off and probably tell his mum too!
Now with the loss of close communities, it seems those unwritten rules of behaviour are no longer there. Everyone is aware of their 'rights', there isn't the need to 'fit in'.

Yes, you'll see people panicking on here about whether someone has been 'shamed' or 'judged'

Yes they have been shamed if they've done something wrong and judged negatively

Nothing wrong with shame or judgement, its a human tool to maintain social norms so that society can function effectively for the majority without descending into chaos and harm.

If you feel shame or guilt for something you did wrong, you're less likely to do it again. Try to make recompense and engage with restoration.

Its not foolproof but its better than 'I dont give a shit what people think'

Spot on.

Wasn't much better in 2000 I had my first baby the pressure to get married was intense (I declined) then when I went it alone loads of judgement i lost my job and had to claim benefits friends reactions varied from well your pretty enough get yourself out there you won't be single long to friends dropping me in case I took their husbands ffs

Was there?!

l used to teach fashion history. The only one l know is the pre WW1 one which was linked to Art Noveau.

Those attitudes were common in society also though. Lots of people were still more traditional. I noticed it because I was young and felt differently. There was still loads of hoo haa about people "living in sin" in the 1980s and attitudes towards homosexuality changed hugely between the 1980s and 2000s. Homophobia was absolutely rife at my secondary school in the late 1980s. And before people moaning about "woke" we had moaning about political correctness.

There's been more than one belle Epoque!

I think it's because people get shamed for all sorts of pointless things so shame started to be seen as a morally bad thing to do to others.

I think shame is actually very necessary and important for society, and for ourselves but it should be directed at things that matter.

The Belle Epoque was pre WW1!

The social changes in the 20’s were more to do with the war than money.

Community rarely exists now so why would anyone care. When we were kids we knew anything we did would get back to our family. My granny used to worry about scrubbing her doorstep and washing her net curtain incase the neighbours thought she was a lazy cow. I don't know my neighbours so why would I care?

Definitely I was out today with my kids so many rude people pushing and shoving you say excuse me AND WAIT not excuse me AND SHOVE

I’d probably be scandalised if I was transported back to the 1920s myself…

The 1920s was a belle epoque wasn't it? Lots of social configurations breaking up because people had a bit of money. 60s it happened again, then 90s. We're currently in a prolonged swing away from that - the economy has never quite recovered from 2008, across Europe and the USA, and thanks to social media we can measure ourselves against everyone and also judge everyone. And censure everything everybody vaguely in the public eye has ever said, even when they were teenagers.

@User37482 We need to stop pathologising every little thing as being the fault of “society”. We are society.

Pretty much, yep. The difference between reasons and excuses is the element of choice.

I know they were always vilifying single mothers. But l and anyone l knew just ignored it. I felt no stigma. Except to upset the Tories which was a bonus.

Really? You don't remember John Major's 'back to basics' campaign? Peter Lilley standing on his hind legs and giving out about "young girls" getting pregnant (by themselves?) to "get a house" while simultaneously being responsible for all of society's ills, from delinquency to myxomatosis? You don't remember perfectly serious and grim faced panel discussions on the BBC around whether AIDS was god's punishment for gay-ness?

I mean it doesn't much matter if you don't remember these things, because they certainly happened regardless of your own account of those times.

I do wonder at your motivation for so firmly asserting otherwise though.

And yet most young people are worse off now. And many more young people claim to be mentally unwell. Maybe shame wasn't so bad and provided a needed boundary.

No, I'm 49. You have a short memory.

In the 1980s and up to the early 1990s the press regularly outed men for being gay and wrote bile about them. And the press and Tory government were always shaming single mothers, and extolling the traditional family while doing who and what the fuck they like - there was a sex scandal every week! And they carried on this theme in opposition in the late 1990s.

Somethings are seen as more shameful than they used to be. Treating animals poorly, for example. Drink driving. Physically abusing children. I think it would be unusual for anyone to hit a child in public, whereas not long ago that would have been seen as the norm.

But in other ways, I absolutely agree with you.