To think that social standards have slipped because people don’t feel shame anymore?

I haven’t but just looked it up and now of course I have to watch it! 😄

Yes, exactly.

But you’re not 14 now, are you? Being indifferent to others because they’re strangers seems a fairly adolescent mindset.

My family did the front step thing too and clean curtains were also really important. I think it's different when your neighbours are people you know and maybe even help out now and then. I think they didn't want to "let the street down" if that makes sense.

Just thinking of my mum scrubbing the front step to avoid the shame.

Pyjamas were traditionally night clothes and were not until recently worn in public.However they have crossed over into loungewear which is why people wear them out more.

I remember as a very drunk student in the late 80’s going to the chippy in my pj’s. Everyone stared at me.

The promotion of individual rights, but no individual responsibility, has resulted in a society where people think only about what is good for themselves and no longer care how their behaviour impacts on anyone else. Ironically, the long term results harm the individual too.
The promotion of 'self' and personal entitlement is why anti social behaviour has increased. There are no consequences for blaring loud music or littering or shoplifting etc.
What has improved is that people can be gay or have children outside of marriage or leave abusive men and not be shamed for that. Unfortunately the pendulum has swung so far though, that there is no shame attached to actions where there should be embarrassment. Men can dodge child support, people can cheat on spouses etc and 'society' no longer shames them for this. Society no longer condemns morally bankrupt behaviour and it should imo.

Manners oil the wheels of social interaction and it's to our detriment that we are losing ours. They make our day a little bit nicer. I do agree though that the social contract has been broken - working hard and doing your best at school and generally behaving in a decent manner, no longer gets you the agreed benefits of a home and a comfortable lifestyle. Or even timely medical treatment! Our young people especially (but all of us really) are being told they can't rely on society to do right by them, so why should they give a crap about doing the right things?

I agree and disagree. Personally, it’s very important to me to be polite as I want to make others feel good and I hope to be well liked. That said, there is certainly an element of social anxiety that can feel like a huge hurdle when I feel caught between what is best for me/my family and how we are perceived. I’d like to be free of that. But, it’s circular, as surely I want others to be mindful of me! My husband and I get very annoyed when his family treat us like we are low on the family hierarchy - especially if we’ve just gone out of our way to make them feel special. There’s something to be said about the reciprocation - it all seems to break down and go ‘rudely’ when behaviour is one way. When we have decided to say ‘no’ or even just do something surprising (and wonderful) in our personal life - it feels like the people who wish they were brave enough to do the same get irritated.

I was 14.

Your personal morals are clearly limited if you had to query why your mother was conscious of disturbing the neighbours. Cheeky.

Did you even read the bit where I said I try to behave decently for personal moral reasons? There's only two paragraphs in my post.

I think there is a difference between feeling shame for things that were/are outside your control (so you shouldn’t feeling shame because of your childhood because you weren’t in control) and feeling shame for actions that are absolutely in our control.

A poster upthread has said that she doesn’t really care about the impact of her actions on strangers because they’re strangers. That to me is something to be ashamed of. A bit of consideration goes a long way to making our society better for everyone.

It's attitudes like yours which are the problem. Just because you don't know someone doesn't mean you can't extend basic good manners and consideration towards them.

Starts at home, no?

I think some shame is necessary.

What a load of racist bollocks.

Yeah, there seems to be a presumption that shame is always a bad thing. But sometimes it's valuable. The thought of shame keeps me from doing all sorts of things that I shouldn't do! Like most things sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad.

I agree with this in some sense, and I do wonder myself sometimes especially where parking like an asshole is concerned. But generally I feel most people are still decent people, and I feel good being a good person. I don't just do it for what someone will do for me. What is the Gandhi saying "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind." Happy to being back public shaming though 😁

Yes I agree. I live my life in shame because of my childhood and it’s not nice. Embarrassment is about thinking something you have done is wrong, shame is thinking you are wring.

Some pernicious behaviour people exhibit is probably due to a lack of consequences so hundreds of years ago inappropriate behaviour would have resulted in you being ostracised from your tribe which would have had possibly terminal consequences.

the reason years and years

I blame the dumbing down of tv and reality shows, where absolute lunkheads were given airtime to behave like lunkheads. Z list celebs is what caused this. Half of them can’t even speak properly, and non celeb lunkheads follow their every move on social media. The lunkheads have been endorsed, the genie is out of the bottle! Their pig ignorance is just as valid as behaving respectfully so we are where we are. Dumbed down, entitled and celebrating the wrong things.

But if you are surrounded by others who are inconsiderate, what's the point? You are inconveniencing yourself in a way that is clearly not valued, or even noticed by anyone else around you.

It's the growth of individualism, an intrinsic part of liberal capitalism. Its freedom. Its what we all wanted. Freedom to do whatever we want all the time. Were we really so naive to expect this regime would somehow preserve the aspects of the old order which we did happen to like?

“prefer kids are empowered to be themselves”

but the problem is that human beings are inherently selfish so if everyone is empowered then you will ultimately have anarchy. Could it be that parents are too busy/can’t be bothered to teach their children manners and social altruism so society is slowly descending into chaos?

Yes. Have you seen Idiocracy? It used to be a comedy and yet a few short years later it looks like a very accurate prediction

Manners are taught but consideration should be intrinsic. So chewing gum with your mouth open is one thing but filthy shoes on train seats and similar is another.

I don't think being considerate of others is an outdated form of manners, it certainly makes for a nicer world to live in