To think that social standards have slipped because people don’t feel shame anymore?

It’s not your place to control them though is it?

We have a legal system to prevent and punish crime and outside of that we don’t get to control the way other adults behave.

I don’t know who you think you are tbh demanding answers and berating me that the ones I give are not good enough. I’ve made it clear I don’t think they should do it. I dont think anyone “should” feel ashamed, I’m not controlling and crazy enough to expect certain private emotions of others to satisfy me.

because its a "have you stopped beating your wife yet?" question.

you are convinced that if people feel shame they will stop doing the thing you don’t want them to do.

No I'm not.

I'm asking you a straight question.

Again, do you think they should feel shame?

It's a yes or no answer, yet you keep swerving it.

Why is that?

But again - some people are out of control. They can’t control themselves to behave in society - they’re not breaking the law (we really shouldn’t need laws to make people decent, considerate members of society, but perhaps that’s the shameless world we now live in, where we have to now depend on the rule of law rather than the “rule” of society? I don’t think that’s an improvement.) but their behaviour is, in my opinion, detrimental to society and to wellbeing.

We have in many ways thrown the baby out with the bathwater. The pendulum of correction swings too far, and balance needs to be regained.

That's another factor.

The societal push from governments in part (and more on social media where it gets twisted into unrecognisable things) - to have greater understanding of mental health, neurodevelopmental conditions and trauma SHOULD have led to an improvement for individuals and society when it's actually backfired greatly.

Higher waiting lists, some like ASC/ADHD which can't be managed by literally any health system. Unprecedented amounts of children not being in school, adults not being in work, disability benefit claims and a public obsession with virtually everyone having ir identifying as having some kind of condition or emotional state which explains their behaviour. Including terrible behaviour.

Which even if it were to be true does not and should not in any way excuse their behaviour which causes distress or harm to others and is actually irrelevant.

People don't feel shame because no one is allowed to judge or pull people up on appalling behaviour any more because we don't know what's going on in their lives..... It seems to be a get out clause for every piece of bad behaviour for some reason. Heaven forfend that my mother has just died but I can still find a way not to be an obnoxious aresehole, or I get asked to move seats on a plane without screaming like a banshee.

You're confusing 'shaming' with difference of opinion.

Which is what I said upthread. That the idea of 'shaming' was originally a response to society where celebrities or just every day folks were subject to a societal response to their lives.

So a woman with multiple sexual partners would be considered a slut by a lot of society and their lives negatively appraised, when men aren't subjected to the same societal opinions. So slut-shaming. Which was extremely important when victims of rape or any kind of sexual abuse were deemed as unlikely to be telling the truth because of their sexual history.

Then it veered into the idea that anyone who was disagreed with or other people had negative opinions about their choices had been 'shamed' .

You weren't 'shamed'. People just just thought your wedding/birthday whatever was flashy.

No-one is ever going to have all of their choices validated by other people. That doesn't mean they were 'shamed'.

This. I have just realised what I dislike about the concept and that's the implication that shame is a legitimate tool to control society or individuals.....That it was EVER a beneficial thing to do things because the neighbours or the village will judge and shame you if you don't. Teaching respect, kindness and concern for others? great. Do as you would be done by? fine! Approving and praising people of all ages for good behaviour, again fine. Consequences for antisocial behaviour also fine. but shaming no, that's abuse.

Shame people is a form of controlling them, as many others have said

I’ve answered this a number of times

someone should not let their dog shit outside your house.

whether they feel ashamed of doing it is irrelevant.

you are convinced that if people feel shame they will stop doing the thing you don’t want them to do.

That is flawed logic

It is a gamble @AquaPeerbut equally the highly individual narcissistic world we have now isn’t really doing much for a lot of people either.

I am ashamed of myself for a particular action I took in my 20s, and I believe I am right to feel ashamed of that, it had a lot of consequences on other people that they didn’t deserve. I’m not beating myself up about it these days (it was nearly 30 years ago) but it’s quietly there and I hope informs my actions in a positive way.

I don’t know if anyone else was ashamed of me, though. Disappointed and upset, yes. And rightly so.

On the other hand, it’s people making you feel that you should have shame that causes huge personal problems.

You can’t control either to whom or why the shame is demanded, or what the shamed persons reaction is.

I’ve been shamed by people who just wanted to make me feel shit for being me- the way I looked, spoke, whatever.

I’ve had people shame me for wanting my events (wedding holidays birthday parties etc) the way I want them (attention seeking, flashy, wasteful)

I’ve grown to with so much shame (and- I am very sensitive to it) I’ve been too scared to do many things I want to do due to the shame of failing.

the posters neighbour you refer to might’ve had a legitimate complaint about her music noise.
But her mum might also have been terrified of upsetting the neighbours, or the neighbours might’ve been controlling and unreasonable.

life isn’t as simple as “shame people into good behaviour”. It’s a cruel gamble with real consequences for normal, well meaning people.

We weren't allowed Jesus boots in primary school. Shoes had to have a closed toe. My leather shoes that don't need cleaning are not all trainers. Plimsoles were allowed in school because it was a poor area and for some families, it was plimsoles or bare feet. Trainers didn't exist.

I voted, YABU, because shame simply doesn't work and people who are already mindful of others bare the brunt of shame-based behavioral enforcement and feel inadequate that they can't do more. While the people who don't give a shit about others, will not care about how much shame other people try to lob at them.

@godmum56

When I was little, and dinosaurs did not roam the street, I wore jesus sandals to school in summer, which my dad cleaned every Sunday night.

I did indeed polish my DGC's shoes - when the black liquid polish, applied with sponge applicator, dries, the finish looks dull/matte. When it's dried, I then rub them with a soft, dry cloth and they look shiny - not as good as my father's finish, but shiny. It covers the grey scuffed parts really well and they look almost like new again.

None of my grandchildren wear trainers to school. They won't be able to in High School either because none of the HS around here allows anything that resembles trainers to be worn.

I think so.

Like most things took off on social media the concept of 'shaming' veered off into a silly direction with people feeling they'd been 'shamed' when nothing of the sort had happened and it was just a difference of opinion or someone giving unwanted advice.

And there has been a huge increase in individualism, entitlement and people's sense of 'rights' which was an issue before covid which then exploded.

I agree with you OP. I'm a bit tired of the cult of victimhood and people making excuses. I have no interest in stupid rules about fish knives or something but basic courtesy and consideration to other humans should be a given. Life in Britain has declined across my lifespan in many ways but a lack of stoicism and courtesy hasn't helped.

I agree. There isn't really a "society" anymore to set social standards.

the shoe thing is interesting. When I was a child and dinosaurs roamed the streets, my Dad used to polish our shoes on a sunday night....but our shoes needed polishing because that was the kind of leather that was around then. In summer when we wore plimsoles to school, then he didn't clean them. I have got leather shoes but they are made from treated leather and don't ever need polishing. The most i do is wipe mud off with a wet cloth or brush the suede ones. If you have shoes by Loake or somebody and they are made from traditional leather then yes, you may still need to polish them, but not otherwise.

Really? Do you think that everyone should be able to act exactly as they like, regardless of how abhorrent the behaviour maybe be and feel no sense of shame? Some people should be ashamed of themselves. Your statement is so bizzare. Please elaborate ....

This.

We all know this. That was just someone being contrary.

I think if they did, then the "system" wouldn't have changed?

Yup! A man let his off lead dog wonder down my drive and into my front garden yesterday where the dog proceeded to take a dump in the middle of my lawn, but it's alright apparently as he cleaned it up and I was in the wrong for questioning him as to 'what the hell he thought he was playing at' apparently