AIBU to suggest it is time to stop the pretence that people can transition?

I agree. I remember in the 70s and 80s it was with pity that people looked upon someone dumb/brave enough to get their genitals surgically mutilated and they looked upon them as harmless and a bit eccentric.

But I would argue that many of the new wave ‘gender questioning’ aren’t doing it because of old-fashioned dismorphia. I think there are a lot of young people who simply don’t align themselves with stereotypical gender presentation and they’re desperately looking for something to identify with, or they’re just gay and confused by it. I think for some older men it’s pure fetishism. Obviously for the Isla Bryson types they see it as a get out of jail free card. And it worked. Get your victim to say ‘her penis’ in court and go straight to the women’s estate - happy days!

I think the insulting legal fiction ‘living as a woman’ needs to be removed. You’re either a biological woman or not. If you’re not, make peace with who you are. If you need therapy to do that that’s fine, but don’t coerce society to live and pander to a lie.

You either belong to the sex class that produces eggs or the sex class which produces sperm, regardless of whether your own reproductive organs work or you do/don’t want children.

Isn’t this where CIS and Trans comes in?

Depends what you mean by transition. I’m entirely happy for someone to dress and have hair etc more similar to the norm for the opposite sex. I don’t even have a problem with using different pronouns and given names. But we do need to be clear than this means transition to be a trans person, not transitioning to the opposite sex.

Well… all the people who don’t want to reproduce or can’t… is that our definition of the primary function of a male/ women? If we believe this, how does this impact all of those who can’t / don’t want to reproduce, incl our friends in LGBTQ+ community as much as hetero’s?

It is a fact that you can’t change sex though.

I think there's a lot of trans hatred and ignorance on mumsnet and it's pretty shocking to be honest. Your opinion doesn't make something fact.

More than 70 per cent of transgender prisoners are in for sex offences or violent crimes

If men who identify as women were somehow 'born in the wrong body' then they would behave like women. And we now have years of evidence which shows that, as a class, they don't.

Obviously not all men, however they identify, are violent but 99% of sex crimes are committed by men. And over 70% of the transwomen currently in prison have committed sex crimes or other extremely violent crimes.

Only 3% of women have committed sex crimes.

More should be done so that young people recognise that it’s ok to be, for example, a female who doesn’t feel very female and doesn’t conform to normal female stuff. Same with males. Everyone fits under their biological male or female banner, but where you sit on that banner is absolutely up to you. The transitioning thing needs to be stopped.

It’s ok to be a woman who prefers male clothes and shuns female stereotypes. That doesn’t mean you’re a man, it just means you are sitting further along the female banner than, say, Barbie is. Same with men. You might be an extremely feminine man who prefers wearing female clothes and/or make- up, and that’s fine too. But you’re still a man, you‘re just sitting on a different section of the male banner than Rambo is.

The notion that if you don’t like x, y and z then you must surely be the opposite sex is madness to me.

It’s not though and they shouldn’t mutilate themselves to achieve something that can never ever happen in reality.

All that stuff is still vanishingly rare, though, and they are anomalies in an otherwise binary system. I think many people like to complicate issues with their own agendas, and forget that as a biological species, our prime directive is to reproduce and that means 2 gametes, eggs and sperm. It’s pretty simple really. Therefore the vast majority of humans are male or female, with occasional mutations and abnormalities (and no, that doesn’t mean anyone with these anomalies is worth less as a person, it’s simply fact). There is no third sex (intersex) as everyone with a DSD is primarily one or the other. Coming from a biological scientist.

Wtf 😒

As a person born as a woman at birth I do not understand why there is a focus on this at the moment. It seemed to be a fringe issue for decades and then to my mind out of no where there has been this focus on trans women in toilets and prisons. Have to be honest - just seems a bit weird.

Yes, it is weird isn't it? Perhaps you should have a read of this article, it will explain a lot.

Article

And this is exactly why these ideologies are dangerous, because they indoctrinate kids to that extreme, for the silliest reasons, like a kid wearing a dress 😐

Yes I agree, I think the way society has moved towards affirmation is actually really damaging. I often see videos of transwomen seemingly truly believing they pass because people are basically terrified of misgendering etc. I think it contributes to some serious delusion. I think previously people were told that it would be very difficult before they transitioned, that they may never pass as a woman that they may find it hard to form romantic relationships and I think thats the right thing to do before someone starts surgeries or hormones and does something they can’t reverse.

Thats just the impact on people with gender dysphoria being lied to by those who are supposed to be helping them let alone the impact on women and wider society.

I remember when it used to be called 'having a sex change' in the 60s and 70s, Back then everyone (even the people themselves) agreed that you couldn't actually change your sex. I think people felt largely sympathetic towards people who had had a sex change, and felt that if someone was prepared to go to those lengths to live as a woman then they were obviously serious and to take them at face value.

The shrilly rising demands that TWAW has utterly failed to convince the vast majority of the population that biological sex can be changed, something now confirmed in the SC, and that should be an end to it.

I read this from Rebecca Helm, Biology Professor. It’s made me question things. I’d be interested in other biologists point of view because this makes it more complex.
“If you know a bit about biology you will probably say that biological sex is caused by chromosomes, XX and you’re female, XY and you’re male. This is “chromosomal sex” but is it “biological sex”? Well…
Turns out there is only ONE GENE on the Y chromosome that really matters to sex. It’s called the SRY gene. During human embryonic development the SRY protein turns on male-associated genes. Having an SRY gene makes you “genetically male”. But is this “biological sex”?
Sometimes that SRY gene pops off the Y chromosome and over to an X chromosome. Surprise! So now you’ve got an X with an SRY and a Y without an SRY. What does this mean?
A Y with no SRY means physically you’re female, chromosomally you’re male (XY) and genetically you’re female (no SRY). An X with an SRY means you’re physically male, chromsomally female (XX) and genetically male (SRY). But biological sex is simple! There must be another answer…
Sex-related genes ultimately turn on hormones in specifics areas on the body, and reception of those hormones by cells throughout the body. Is this the root of “biological sex”??
“Hormonal male” means you produce ‘normal’ levels of male-associated hormones. Except some percentage of females will have higher levels of ‘male’ hormones than some percentage of males. Ditto ditto ‘female’ hormones. And…
…if you’re developing, your body may not produce enough hormones for your genetic sex. Leading you to be genetically male or female, chromosomally male or female, hormonally non-binary, and physically non-binary. Well, except cells have something to say about this…
Maybe cells are the answer to “biological sex”?? Right?? Cells have receptors that “hear” the signal from sex hormones. But sometimes those receptors don’t work. Like a mobile phone that’s on “do not disturb’. Call and cell, they will not answer.
What does this all mean?
It means you may be genetically male or female, chromosomally male or female, hormonally male/female/non-binary, with cells that may or may not hear the male/female/non-binary call, and all this leading to a body that can be male/non-binary/female.
Biological sex is complicated. Before you discriminate against someone on the basis of “biological sex” & identity, ask yourself: have you seen YOUR chromosomes? Do you know the genes of the people you love? The hormones of the people you work with? The state of their cells?
Since the answer will obviously be no, please be kind, respect people’s right to tell you who they are, and remember that you don’t have all the answers. Again: biology is complicated. Kindness and respect don’t have to be. “

Also, of course people with reproductive problems or who choose not to reproduce are fully human just like everyone else. The whole point here is that women and girls are treated differently from men and boys because of our reproductive status, whether we reproduce or not. Also, anybody who goes through male puberty ends up physically larger and stronger than the vast majority of females. That together with male socialisation means that males are a risk to females. Not all males are violent or sexual predators, but some are, and very few females are, and we are less able to fend off attackers.

None of this changes when someone pronounces the magic words 'I identify as ...' The hormone and surgical treatments offered to trans-identified people do not change a male into a female or a female into a male for reproductive or any other purposes. They will remain their original sex for the rest of their lives.

Hi, ultimately my feeling is that whatever someone wants to do with their body is up to them. I appreciate there are differing views on this and respect your view. My concern is that there are people out there, trans people, who by a small minority are just going to have their lives made hellish. And that I am sad about.

Biology is literally what makes you make or female.
The fact that some women can’t have children doesn’t men they are men. It’s why research into women’s health is important so that the problems/ abnormalities/ conditions can be treated.
Having abnormal sex organs doesn’t make anyone a third sex . It’s male or female with a difference in sexual development.

If you only read Mumsnet and never stepped foot outside the door you'd think the country was populated only of trans people desperately trying to force themselves into public toilets.

There's a damaging cult but not necessarily the one you think it is 🙄

Nobody has both male and female genitalia. Some extremely rare disorders of sexual development mean a person may have ambiguous genitalia but nowadays with DNA testing, scans etc the cases where a person's sex is genuinely unclear are vanishingly rare. In any case, hardly anyone with a trans identity has any sort of disorder of sexual development. Some very old school transsexuals believe they do, but taking the form of a psychological problem, i.e. they have a body that is quite obviously male or female, but they can't shake off the fixation that they should have been female or male. They sometimes express this as having been born in the wrong body. Quite obviously nobody can be born in the wrong body, so this should be treated as a mental health issue, which is what used to happen.

I think they should treat the mental health issue rather than the body, which can never be repaired.

Even people born with ambiguous sex organs or variations of both (known as DSD - Difference in Sexual Development) are ultimately either male or female. Their chromosomes determine their true sex.

There never has been, nor can ever be, a "third sex". All mammals are binary sexually.