Are men going to now wholeheartedly welcome trans women into their spaces? Utterly brilliant if so ...

I think it will vary a bit on location.. trendy bar in Brighton, unlikely to be a problem.. working man's club in a yorkshire coal mining village.. probably more likely to face abuse. And these men can choose where to live.

Considering there are already male people with transgender identities using male toilets without issue, I don’t quite understand why people are stating it is a major issue that needs access to female toilets to solve it.

Either the male people with transgender identities who are using male toilets are lying. Or it is an issue in some areas that need resolving. Or there is dishonesty at play.

Didn’t you post this:

“I'd prefer a huge campaign to make all toilets unisex (hear me out).”

This is removing female single sex toilets.

No one has said children who need care and protection should be excluded from female single sex spaces. And no one has expressed hate towards people with transgender identities on this thread.

So I take it that you have no evidence that making all toilets unisex will improve safety? And that removing the communal space in female toilets is needed?

Perhaps a discussion should be had about converting all male toilets into unisex toilets, leaving the female single sex toilets as is and expecting male people to be respectful of laws and behave with respect.

My point is that unisex toilets are demonstrably safe,

Pp keep pointing out why they are not safe.

I don't know where this idea is coming from that men are going to turn on TW and give them abuse. Why would they?

Transwomen are MEN. They can be as much the arsehole man as any other man can. Women are not to be used as human shields for male on male violence.

At a guess most men probably don’t care.

If you look at what I've posted before I absolutely do want male toilets to be safer, I couldn't have made that more clear. I've never said anything about removing all female single sex spaces, but these should be made safer too. How many of us have taken boys into female toilets bc the men's are unsafe? It's bc we are scared they will be sexually assaulted, so yes it is a massive problem.

It should be seen as being a real problem. And not one resolved by allowing male access to female spaces.

A campaign about reducing male violence is a great idea. All male people.

That’s a male problem to be solved by men. Not women being kind or rolling over to give up our sports, prisons, health groups etc. it’s not just toilets and to be honest I’m sick to death of reading about loo problems. I’m more interested knowing that men now cannot join a breast feeding group of new mums, or a prolapse support group. Finally we have sense.

As I said on another thread which I think you replied to – men need to do better. Women are afraid of men, transwomen are afraid of men, even men are afraid of bloody men. It’s so sad to see so little on this being acknowledged as the real problem.

The most significant thing that can be done is remove the communal area in public toilets! That's where people loiter out of sight and get up to no good. What is the point of having men's toilets that boys and young men can't use in safely?

I have never felt unsafe in a Gents loo and I know of no other bloke who has ever said they do ever.

I think your sample is most un-typical.

As a bloke, I don't think most men care one way or the other.
All I ask is that you don't pee on my shoes at the urinal.

They aren't a magic bullet.

But they are a better solution than allowing male people into female single sex spaces. Perhaps what is needed is a general safety campaign for people with transgender identities. For that to work, perhaps what is first needed is to stop extreme activists from publicly reminding people of how much they hate people who don't believe that in their philosophical belief about themselves and who don't agree to treating male people as if they are female.

So, is your focus now on the treatment of male people who have transgender identities? And not on male toilet issues at all? And please, stop with the 'Men get raped too' as some kind of defence to removing female single sex spaces. Yes, they do and men need to find ways to make their spaces safer. But not at the expense of the needs of female people.

It is not hate to want all male people excluded from female single sex spaces. It can be said to be hateful to expect society to completely rearrange facilities and removed female single sex spaces that are needed by female people to suit male people who hold a particular philosophical belief that does reflect material reality. Hateful to female people.

You are now also trying to equate the illegitimate discrimination experienced by homosexual people with the legitimate discrimination needed for appropriate safeguarding. Excluding male people from female single sex spaces is nothing like the plight of homosexual people of the past. I am very happy to take you through the difference between legitimate and illegitimate discrimination if you don't understand the difference.

However, It is emotionally manipulative to use such a false comparison.

I’d be concerned about the safety of transwomen in third spaces too. Third spaces will undoubtedly be infiltrated by dangerous men. They aren’t a magic bullet.

Men absolutely do get raped, so do trans women. And if you look at some of the high profile cases recently, the police do very little.

But I fear that we could be going back to the 70s and 80s when gay men were not safe on the streets. Just looking at some of the comments on this thread, I am fearful of the seeming cultivation of hate against trans women, and they would probably be fine with this happening.

There is a lot to what you say here.

However, if anything has sunk Stonewall, I think it might be this ruling. I mean, their reputation started to crumble with the Forstater case, then came Allison Bailey's case about her treatment by her employer, fully supported by Stonewall. However, it was there that businesses discovered that Stonewall had used its power and the leverage of its 'diversity champions' awards for organisations to show how inclusive they were, to give advice that was completely flawed but who then took no ownership of that.

It was this that started their downfall. They started being outed as giving legal advice that was not reflective of the actual law but trying to sell in their desired interpretation, and then when the organisations were being taken to court because of their advice, Stonewall declared that they had no liability at all.

So organisations started cancelling their involvement. I mean, let's not forget the Stonewall staffing scandals and the things that Nancy Kelley said in the public arena. Then the Cass review also showed Stonewall up for being irresponsible in their advice and their support about children.

Now this ruling. That has proved that Stonewall was spreading a false interpretation of the law across the UK. I am not sure that Stonewall, who was once a valuable organisation who should be well recognised for its achievements in rights for LGB people, can come back from this. It has been 10 years or so since they publicly announced adding the transgender group focus. But they tried to enact change with dishonesty. And when you consider it, the entire premise that people can change sex and that one group's philosophical belief should override other's needs the way this group has demanded, I guess dishonesty is at the heart of the premise too.

I’m fully GC but I get not wanting to put your head above the parapet. Mortgage to pay and work for captured organisation. If this teaches us anything I think it’s that lobby groups have too much power. Stonewall has been incredibly successful at what it does. It’s not been good or beneficial to the country though.

The taxpayer has been funding them to create toxic rhetoric which is misrepresented as law. I’d like to know what safeguards we put in place to stop this happening again?

Men of unconventionally feminine-styled appearance used to get bashed up in men's loos because of homophobia, not 'transphobia'. I don't hang around with interesting people any more, so I may be wrong, but I believe that has very nearly died out these days.

I can well imagine it could still be a problem in some other places - middle America, perhaps, parts of South America and Africa - but do men in the UK still try to enforce masculinity on strangers?

In any case, gay men aren't clamouring to use the Ladies', are they? They never have!

lol I remember there was a massive queue for toilets in McDonald’s women’s toilet, there must’ve been a lot broken. The men’s toilet was completely empty. Me and some other women with kids commandeered the men’s toilet for the next 10 minutes to get the queue down 😂 one slightly confused man wandered in, and then scurried into a cubicle until we all left.

I used to work with kids and do day trips etc with them. I was with a 9 year old boy who didn’t want to come in the ladies toilet, but I’d insist as I didn’t want him going in the men’s by himself.

I do believe more needs to be done to make male toilets safer all kinds of males!

Absolutely as it’s just a man dressed different to most blokes. Since the ruling it’s good to see women supporters here. Previously the threads on changing rooms , loos etc women’s only spaces were not women supported.

Female people are afraid of being raped or sexually abused while male people are afraid of another male looking at them?