To find DS4 so bloody annoying

Could he be jealous of the babygetting attention?

I'd change the way your parenting, ( not a dig ) he sounds ND to me,

You've been parenting him like a neurotypical child and it's not working for either of you. Have a read about ND parenting and try some of them, see if it makes a difference

I struggled with my daughters behaviour for years, looking back it's because I expected her to act and behave a certain way ( like most neurotypical children) and we would both get frustrated when she couldnt/wouldn't

Now I parent her like an ND child she's a completely different girl

Sounds within the bounds of normal to me. He’ll certainly be picking up on the fact that you don’t like him though.

@hoppingandhop Wow, this sounds really tough and I'm so sorry for how you're feeling (which is hardly unusual given the provocation you're experiencing from DS).
I don't have any advice and that's not what you want anyway, but just a couple of questions:

• You say DS is worse when you and DH parent him together - could he be jealous of your relationship with DH?
• Have you ever broken down and cried in front of DS? If so, how has he reacted to you?

How exactly would this be possible whilst the one adult there was carrying a baby?

Firstly i will say after a week on holidays with a 4 year old, it is totally normal to not feel all loved up and Zen with your child. Every parent will have their patience tested, 4 year olds are annoying, they drain you and can be mean and cruel and thoughtless.
This is just a phrase...it will pass and you will find fun in your boy again.

My main piece of advice is when you think negative thoughts about your boy, stop. make yourself stop. Its not helpful to think negatively about him. He just a boy finding his way, all the things you said about his behavior while naughty - they are still normal.

I was in your shoes when my boy was young. I remember a week away with him nearly sent my DH and i to divorce, he was so cross, but it passes and he will grow and learn with your care and love. Everyone deserves love, you need to give it to your boy without conditions.

I can understand that - but it was nearly a year ago he is surely very different now -developmentally - he's not 3.5 now.

Also TBH brutally honest expecting a 3.5 year old to always listen isn't great and frankly as the adult you should have manged the danger better - easier said than done with mulitple kids and hindsight is always 20/20 but him not listening was within normal behavior for his age.

If something bad had happened it's not him not listening that would have been to blame but you not managing the situation and danger better. It's a common parental experience - you turn your back slip up for a second and they do something daft that could be dangerous. However they lack the capcity to understand and forsee the danger they rely on us parents to do that - so it's not their fault.

I suspect though you are dwelling and it's badly shaken your confidence in parenting him and taking him out - possibly making you anxious when you do and him playing up more in reponse. You have to remind youself he was fine - both kids are older and you are more experienced - next time you'll do better.

I'd have also suggested practise walking with a wrist strap this last year so he gets used to not ever running off - past that mine held on to pushchair every time - and anyone telling them different was ignore by them and given short shrift by me - meant they stayed closed so I could take all three out on public transport by myself - they also knew the expectation was to stay close and watched each other - not to say still didn't have occasion when DS especially would get exicted at a venue and by off -remionder of the rules and holding a hand rest of the day usually worked.

Not RTFT but can I suggest you speak to your HV/GP? It sounds as though

a) you need support and parenting advice re your DS and a referral vis Social services could facilitate this;
b) you need more input from DH so need to tell him how you feel;
c) you may need counselling (I wonder whether you have issues with your first born because he is a boy, have attachment issues, are struggling with parenting 2 [perhaps feeling unsupported by DH/family]); and
d) that you need DS to perhaps be assessed. He may be ND if attention/impulsivity is also observed in nursery settings or he may simply be feeling displaced by your second child and need some play therapy with a trained child psychologist etc.

The venom (sorry, I can’t think of a better word for the strength of negativity and dislike your posts convey) with which you describe him is really very very concerning and I would urge you to speak to your GP/HV (and DH) asap.

Hi OP,

That thing where he doesn't listen and then shouts "PASTA" totally resonates here, as well as responding to a question with a totally different topic. We have that too.

Do you have a lot of corporate middle managers in your family by any chance?

It's just possible that your DS is just a bit of a shit. Sorry to say that, but boys can be really difficult.

You have my sympathy @hoppingandhop , my DS is nearly 3 and can also be very challenging.

Off the back of reading this thread, I've requested to go on a local parenting course, because the degree of frustration I feel with certain behaviours is really overwhelming.

One thing I have found with DS is that some strategies do work, but it can take literally months. It's not a case of "if I try this strategy then the behaviour will stop;" it's about doing it again and again and again.

For example, we have an issue with DS flipping his plate over on the table or dumping his food on the floor as soon as he is bored at the table (literally from one mouthful to the next). It has taken months of me removing his plate when he does this, looking for tiny signs he's finished and prompting him to pass me the plate, and praising any small progress to get to him sometimes push the plate towards me when he is done. And sometimes picking up food he has dropped. That's on top of the wailing if there's something he doesn't like on his plate ("if you don't like it, you don't have to eat it. Would you like to put it on my plate?"), demanding snack food instead ("That's not on the table today. You have X and Y on the plate. Would you like some peas?"), and the getting upset and demanding to sit on our laps ("We sit at our own seat"). And now we have the new behaviour of playing inappropriately with food when he is done (eg mashing everything together and smearing it on the table). Every single meal, every single day.

It's relentless that each of those irritating behaviours is taking months of redirecting and correcting to address, but it does eventually work.

I know you don't want advice, but one thing I have found a bit helpful with the not listening is "don't ask more than twice" - so if I've asked DS to do something once and he hasn't done it, asking again right down at his level where I know he can see and hear me. And if he doesn't do it then (most of the time), then scaffolding it in some way - so taking him to the shoes, asking him to get them out, praising him if he does and if he doesn't just sitting him on my lap (physically holding him there), getting the shoes out and putting them on his feet. I would like to be encouraging him to do things like that more independently, but realistically we're not there yet.

People have probably said (or not dared to) that you might want to consider autism/adhd. For example, with adhd and aged four, a big space will demand he runs into it, and your voice won't even register. Whether he is neurodivergent or not, he is at risk of serious harm - from your attitude. He needs your support and approval. Even if you're trying to hide that you don't like him, don't want to be with him, wish you hadn't had him, the message will be getting across. I'm not trying to make you feel guilty but you do need to address the problem. You don't want to harm your firstborn, you're just frustrated. You're the adult. It's down to you to find a way.

@hoppingandhop just to reiterate a previous poster - the appearance of not listening and then answering rudely sounds like PDA to my (non professional) mind. My DC gets overwhelmed even by simple binary choices (i.e. ham or cheese sandwich?) and will either zone out or lash out.
Also just to say my DCs neurodiversity was not picked up by nursery staff, primary school staff or even by us - it was a mental health crisis that precipitated assessment and diagnosis. After receiving the diagnosis a lot of behaviours subsequently made sense.

So if he doesn't answer, how much time do you give him? Maybe it does take him long to process? On average we should give someone 10-12 seconds at bare minimum to answer a question. Now ask a question to yourself, and count to 12 and see how long that is. That he's then shouting 'Pasta' means that he was overwhelmed by your asking repeatedly and he's shouting it out.
Also the unrelated answer is entirely common- children say a LOT of nonsense and make connections in their head that are not obvious to us. I would use this as an opportunity to ask him why he said that. The answer probably made sense in his head.

How is that in any way helpful to OP right now apart from making her feel more shit?

From your outlook and way of posting I think you may want to consider looking at your own potential ND, you sound very anxious and black and white.

@hoppingandhop two things could simultaneously be true. It may be that he has learning difficulties/SEN. It could also be he's picked up on your attitude to him and has worked out that the only time he gets attention is when he's silly/defiant.

A parent- child relationship is NOT a two way street for a long long time. It's a one way street. Even if he doesn't respond to any of your techniques, he's still your child and you are the only mum he has. And actually that's true for the rest of his life. When he's 18, you can choose not to have a relationship with him, but it's not an option now. I'm not saying it to be harsh, but to reframe how you see him.

He's actually a very small child- four is very young even though he might seem like a giant compared to your much younger child. It may also be that he's a more difficult four year old than the average (he is certainly more defiant than both of mine were at this age). But if you see that as the starting point (rather than 'this is how it's always going to be') and then parent him as he is, and celebrate the very small victories, it may help you to find some small pockets of joy that will reframe your relationship with him.

I massively sympathise with you OP. And I think it’s totally normal to think about how your life would have been much better without your child/children, and you maybe regret having them, when times are tough. There are a lot of threads about regretting children on here. It doesn’t mean you don’t love them and feeling like you regret them during hard times (which can go on for years) doesn’t mean you will feel that regret forever. Obviously it could not be more important to never ever let your children sense that regret.

I highly, highly recommend you contact this parenting coach https://findingflowparenting.coach/ She would help you figure out what is going on for you and for him, and work with you to create bespoke practical strategies to build the relationship and behaviour you want.

This is "minutiae" and will probably get lost amongst all the replies but, holding a child's hand or saying "hold my hand" at crucial times, such as the flight of steps just doesn't cut it, their hands in particular get very hot and sweaty and slipping out of your grasp is easy. Hold him with your full hand clamped round his forearm, that does the job. He might wriggle but he can't escape. A detail, I know, but every bit helps.

I honestly wouldn't wait for the nursery to comment or advise you on any kind of neurodiverse issues. Not saying it's not a great nursery it could well be, however, they have so many children to keep an eye on at such young ages. Not everything is always picked up on. It certainly wasn't with my children in nursery!

We had to go about getting the paperwork ourselves and getting them on the waiting list or assessments.

Although I'm not saying this is the case.
however if your child happens to be autistic/ It becomes a whole different kind of ball game when it comes to discipline and explaining things to them in ways they can understand depending on the severity.

I have three children, two of them with ADHD. Autism. And both of them are completely different to each other.

Maybe it's time to seriously consider getting him assessed and getting some real support because believe me it can take some time.

I can honestly understand a lot of your frustrations being there myself at times.

But also possibly get his hearing tested. As you just never know, especially as you said he does this yelling out thing. (Could be completely wrong)

Take some time to have a really good close look at certain behaviours, does he get frustrated by touch or the feel of certain things like clothing. Does he like or dislike cuddles/handholds etc.

Is he fussy about foods? Drinks?
And what are his sleeping habits like?
What is he like with eye contact? Not just with you or his dad or anyone?

He may be really struggling inside to try and get across what his needs are to you. But he cannot do that very well, especially at his age. And it's coming across as constant bad behaviour.

Maybe do some more research too on additional needs.

I really hope things work out for the better. Please don't give up hope 💐

Please also keep in mind there will also be a touch of jealousy there for the younger one as they do tend to get a lot more attention. Fingers crossed this will also pass as he gets older too.

Same it's funny reading the posts of NT mums it's like getting insight to my own poor mothers challenges with me. There's no way I'm doing something just because you want me to if the thing you want is illogical to me. But I'm okay she's okay were okay.

I think you either need to seek a hearing test or a referral for an autism screening or both. Because this can be autistic behaviour.

It may be that he doesn't have the social understanding to realise that he needs to answer the question, or that he can't draw himself away from what he's doing or thinking about to do so, and then the demand to do that feels absolutely unreasonable. He also might have slower auditory processing - how long to you give him to answer questions? Try giving a full ten seconds (longer than you think), then ask again in exactly the same words. I still have to make myself say, "DS" and then wait until he gives me a tiny indication he's heard before actually asking a question; sometimes I need to touch his shoulder. (And it's frustrating behaviour even when you know a child can't help it.)

The out of context responses can be a sign, too. Either because he struggles to understand the question about feelings, so he reflects, or because he's not aware of the convention of staying on topic.

I do also believe that children are their worst with and to the people they feel safest with. You probably are his favourite person.

Even now in his teens, it would not occur to my son to do something that he doesn't want to do because it would make me or his Dad happy. His brain just doesn't work like that.

God, yes, @Spanglemum02, I can relate to this! Saying to my autistic DS, 'Please do it for me' is absolutely the worst thing I could do. It makes him absolutely furious, and he just doesn't get why on earth someone might want to do something for someone else. He is in many ways very considerate, but he cannot get his head round this.

I would look at auditory processing disorder.

Though I found - asking them to say back to me what I had just said helped a lot.

What did I just say - What did I ask you - sometimes making sure they were looking at me - sometime touching them to be sure - extra time to work out what I said and for me to be sure they had heard me.

Maybe your ds feels safer with more boundaries rather than the permissiveness of your DH, which would make sense as to why he is better henaved at nursery as well.

He might be feeling insecure and unsure when your DH is around, but obviously doesn't know how to express this except to be mean to you!