To find DS4 so bloody annoying

Try to spend some time 1:1 with him, notice when he’s demonstrating the behaviour you desire, “I can see you’re sitting really nice,” etc. Find some positives about him and tell him what you do like about him.

It’s painful witnessing parents that clearly favour one child over their other child. The children notice, the preferred child often becomes smug as they get older, and overtly ‘pleasing’ to their parents. The non favoured child knows, and feels that they aren’t loved as much as their sibling.

As the parent it’s up to you to try everything you can to turn this around because it will affect both children’s personalities in the end.

To be honest you can try things until you're blue on the face, assuming that it's something that you're doing wrong, but ultimately you're doing all these things that look wrong because of how your child is, just as much as they're coming from you.
I've seen posts saying it's lazy not to make your child do X, you just have to hold firm the first few times, and I'm thinking I've been holding firm for several years on many things and it's exhausting.
Ultimately I would suggest to meet in the middle with your demands, holidays can be a stress point for anyone let alone struggling kids.
And parent them as if they are autistic/ADHD rather than assuming you can just fix something and it'll be ok. That means it's a more long haul thing to make progress.
And finally just one step at a time! Look after yourself.

I'm sorry you're having a hard time OP. I havent read all the posts, but age 4 is a hard year, for everyone! I have 4yr old twins right now and they're wild.
Remember that your younger child will also be 4yrs old one day, and maybe they will also be a handful.
I hear that it gets better.
I won't give you advice, just a bit of solidarity. 1 of my twins cannot control the volume of his voice. He is like a foghorn.
He does get told off for shouting when its on purpose, but sometimes I will also tell him off before realising he was just speaking really, really loudly. That's his voice, and he cant really help it. I try to focus on the good things.

I know it’s said too often on here, but are you sure he isn’t autistic? A lot of what you describe is exactly how my autistic DSS was like at 4, except he barely spoke as he had a speech delay. My younger brother is autistic but was more verbal and was similar (would run off etc.)

we bought these for DSS
https://amzn.eu/d/hDBRo84
and for a few years had to use them as a consequence for going too far away and not coming back when called. Even with his speech and language delay he quite quickly learned and now pretty much never bolts (though obviously we’re still mindful of it).

Please, for your child’s safety on future outings, buy one of those back packs with reins attached. He’s not too big to be controlled in this way. I was wondering if he is displaying signs of Autism. May be worth speaking to your GP about your son. He obviously is putting himself in danger by running off. This is not normal behaviour eg licking faces, shouting loudly.

It's just possible that your DS is just a bit of a shit. Sorry to say that, but boys can be really difficult.

This is a really horrible comment to make about a small child and not remotely helpful.

OP, the not-listening thing is so difficult to handle and I think you've been offered some good advice here. With my DS, it didn't really register that there was a problem - I just blamed myself - until he was about 5 and a friend said to me: 'It's amazing how [DS name] can just blank people, isn't it?' I realised he really did seem to be on a different planet at times and that no one could break through. I agree with the advice to get down to his level and getting him momentarily to stop what he's doing. Also, be aware that just because certain things don't appear to go in, it doesn't mean that nothing does. He will be picking up a lot more than you think, but maybe processing it differently/at a different speed.

What is his relationship like with your other child?

@hoppingandhop I feel for you. Some kids are just born trickier than others. I think it's down to their temperament. My first was like that. Now at 10 a bit better but still difficult in a whole new way. I do suspect adhd now though which has become more apparent as they grew older.

Cosy chats don't work because he's 4. Quite a lot of what you describe could 'just' be being 4.

I agree with PPs that you need to consider what he is trying to communicate to you through his behaviour.

What I am saying is that he’s very difficult to ‘reach.’

I remember a deputy head saying this to me about DS and me nodding think yes finally someone else gets it after a near full school year of being constantly suggested it was my parenting.

I found early school years worst as Dsis is finding depsite school knowing strong family history of SEN and ND - newphew on NHS waiting list for diagnosis. I'd say Dsis and I were actually very good at managing the behavior - but any problems at school were still balmed on parenting.

Later years it was much easier - but I would suggest looking at or talking to nursury about possible causes and extra support now.

Those cosy chats where we agree what went wrong and how we can put it right don’t really work because he doesn’t respond:

Also 4 year old have zero insight into their behavior or why they are doing things - so plans on how to do better at that age - managing situations or anticipating problems and heading do need to be imposed by adults as do rotines and constant same expectations like always hold hands.
So tell them the plan and what you expect get them to agree but expect to have to remind constantly.

Hey OP, I have a 4 year old who started reception last year. I could have written alot of your post myself including the exasperation. I suspect he might have ADHD but again, like you, not severe but suspect he's on that spectrum if you will. It's hard.

I'm not suprised Easter has been difficult because chocolate definitely sends my DS a bit extra. He's like an unwalked dog, absolutley bouncing off the walls with energy, I try to take him out every day on his bike or to the park just to run some of it off as I struggle to be in the house with him all day.

Things that I've found help is getting out of the house every day, always greeting him with a smile and talking like I'm super happy to see him and that just him waking up has improved my day. Gamifying as much as possible like brushing teeth and singing daft songs about it.

Also following through with consequences and sitting down and explaining why everything's happening.

Saying I notice you like throwing water at your sister, why is that? In a questioning rather than accusatory way, or any other repeating behaviour when yoy're both calm. He might open up.

Also I try to avoid matching his energy and getting into a shouting match he does try to push my buttons and wants to get a reaction from me. I just now calmly say if you continue such and such I'm taking away favourite toy for a day (something that won't fuck me over too like stopping an activity and threatening to go home) and he can earn it back. (Don't get me wrong I still fuck up and end up shouting at him sometimes but it just escalates a shit situation)

Now he's coming up to 5 I think he's getting easier and school has helped (although dreading transition to year 1) he had LOTS of trouble in first term of reception, getting into loads of trouble at school, being very naughty, not listening and the first parent teacher session felt like I was getting a massive bollocking. Felt like we had to prove we were engaged parents, that try to implement consequences, feed healthily and interact with our DS, that weren't dragging up our child. However second term something clicked and he's doing much better at school and at home. (We did move house shortly before school started so lots of change probably similar to you having a new baby)

He has been flagged to the SENCO now at school but only as a "he's on the radar" sort of way. I would speak to any potential school first about your concerns and make sure you choose a school with a good senco provision just in case.

If it makes you feel better mine used to spit in my face when he was 3 and it was so hard not to lose my rag. 😭 Thankfully that's stopped. Sending massive hugs OP. I think it will get better when he's older, you're in the trenches now with 2 preschoolers.

Solidarity, OP. I've known a few toddlers/pre-schoolers (it really isn't all of them) like this. I'm going to pm you. It is tough but I think it gets better. Chin up.

Only read Ops posts -

1. have you had his hearing checked? Raise with your GP.
2. Slow auditory processing. DD has this. She requires much shorter - ie 2 step - named intructions. Dotn over complicate sentences. If you have to repeat the question make sure you repeat the language exactly. I also tried to make sure I made eye contact or my face was visiable to her whenever I was asking a question. Give lots of additional time to respond as it may take longer for them to locate the right language. Will need a different check but again worth raising with your GP.

I sympathize OP, I really do. Some people are so unhelpful and judgemental - it's clear you don't want to feel this way.
I have a 3, nearly 4 year old and recognize some of the behaviours you talk about and they are so, so frustrating. Especially the not listening - it used to be just me that struggled but now dad bears the brunt of this same behavior as well. I get so, so mad sometimes but he really is such a lovely little boy under those behaviours. I love him dearly but oh my goodness, I can totally relate.

I am in discussions now with nursery regarding ADHD, I know other people have suggested neurodivergence to you also.
I have no advice really, just a hand hold.

What is he doing while you are asking him about lunch and he is ignoring? Kids cant do two things at one. do you just fire the question while he is watching tv/playing/colouring etc or do you get his attention first, i.e. pause the tv, touch his shoulder so he looks at you and focus on you while you ask him? If he still ignores you what do you do? Ask second and third time without getting aggravated? Take the remote and say, while still next to him, ok, have a think and i will wait but we wont put the tv on yet so it doesnt distract you.

all i am saying i dont believe he is so impossible IF he doesnt have any other issues such as adhd etc etc. He doesnt wake up thinking he is going to make your life hell. 4yrs old are not little evils. And if you change your approach it also wont work straight away but i appreciate it is hard to keep going when you try and you dont see results. All kids need different approaches, some kids needs more firmer parents, some kids complete opposite. You will find your way

Sympathies OP. I hope you don't feel too put down upon, plenty of people here on your side.

The thing is, some kids are just rotten toddlers! And they improve massively as they get older.

It does sound like there could be some PDA/hearing issue there too, so worth exploring if/when possible.

Say 'this too shall pass' a lot under your breath. It helps a tiny bit.

I would also suggest seeing a private clinical psychologist. I found it much more helpful than the GP or HV.

Well then this is just more evidence to take to the GP for a referral then.

ND people, especially autistics might not always respond verbally or they might say something completely unrelated as they have non-linear thinking.

Similarly, PDA children might not respond or respond appropriately as you expecting a response is a demand for emotional and social reciprocity.

On top of that many autistic people might take a while to answer a question as we process information differently, and asking the question multiple times doesn't really help.

Yes there's every chance he's NT, but you won't know if you don't go and ask and only when you know will you get the right information for the support you need.

I think you need some support - what you have tried so far has not worked and you sound at breaking point. I would suspect that CAHMS would be a long long wait depending on your area. Would you have the money to try a child psychologist privately? Has he always been like this or did it start at specific point? Sometimes you just need an experts help.

I can't remember the topics covered but years ago there was a programme called House of Tiny Tearaways - there was a child psychologist on there who I thought was great - it was much better than the supernanny type stuff .I am not sure if it is available somewhere still but might help you feel you at least are not alone.

I felt similar when mine were a similar age... i think it's just exhausting and challenging to have 2 that age. To reassure you, he is a lovely boy now and we get on so well. Hang in there and don't beat yourself up

Some of this sounds like normal toddler behaviour, but the “lights off, nobody home” screams neurodiverse (together with other things you’ve identified, inappropriate emotional response is another for example…) as other pps have pointed out. Your sole response to this seems to be that nursery haven’t identified any issues, but they see your son for a fraction of the day & have a whole class of children to contend with - some of whom may have greater or more obvious needs. It’s not uncommon for neurodiverse kids to cope/“mask” at school then come undone at home, because you’re their safe place. Have you ever brought up your specific concerns with a GP or health visitor? He may well be neurotypical but surely it’s worth at least exploring? If he has ASD or ADHD then it could bring a whole new perspective on these behaviours and how you handle them, which in turn could really improve your relationship.

We have this too. ND diganosis, auditory processing difficulties, and food sensitivities.

However, I do think my DC is also very wllful. It took me the longest time to cop onto that.

I see others have raised the possibility of neurodivergence and, from my own experience (I have been where you are), I would echo them. Regardless, I do think he might benefit from an assessment by a speech and language therapist, OP, to check his understanding/processing of language. IT could be he doesn't show any of these difficulties at nursery because of the sort of herd mentality there - he can just follow along with what he can see everyone else is doing. Nursery should be able to refer him to SALT, or ask your HV.

I was wondering about that. A DC in my family had such strong food sensitivities that they became incredibly disrputive with anything with colourings, flavourings, more than minimal sugar and certainly caffeine if they ever got hold of chocolate or coke. They also later turned out to be celiac. They also were found to have auditory processing differences alongside dyxlexia (standard hearing tests don't pick up auditory processing differences, needs SEN testing). They also needed to eat little and often. If you can find something that helps him feel calmer in his mind and body, then there is space to start repairing your bond. 💐
I'd suggest to start keeping a diary of food, meal times and snacks, sleep, toileting and behaviours to see if you can find any links.