To find DS4 so bloody annoying

I think you need to have a long talk with your husband and he needs to get his finger out of his arse and help you 50/50. x

I really feel for you, as it's so hard going through this.
The only book I've read that really resonated and helps me with my youngsters is there's still no such thing as naughty - Kate Silverstone. The book for earlier years is there's no such thing as naughty.
Raising boys by Steve Biddulph is also helpful.....
Good luck

Sounds like you are feeling really upset by this. Could you have a few counselling sessions? Maybe if you felt that your feelings were being looked after then you would have more room to look after your child’s.

How old is he?

@IButtleSiryou are so fucking rude and condescending.

@hoppingandhopyou really really need to reframe this, this isn’t okay:

No and I don’t plan to. But I am educated, I can and do read, I have tried various strategies and none of them really connect us very well. All I can do is try but relationships are two way. I can offer but ultimately if DS doesn’t respond then that ends there.

your relationship with your son doesn’t just end there. You are his MOTHER! He is 4!! You can’t expect him to respond as an adult! All behaviour is communication.

are you depressed? You seriously need to speak to a health visitor about how to manage this because it sounds like you’re exasperated yes but also giving up on a child which isn’t okay. Your son can tell you don’t like him. He doesn’t have the language and communication skills to tell you that. As a mum you need to find a way to connect with him and manage his behaviour, you don’t just get to through your hands up and say well he doesn’t like me so that’s that.

if you care at all about the impact on your son you will seek help and advice. Not doing that, if you really have tried everything else, is grossly unfair and damaging to your son.

If he runs off then Back pack reins or wrist strap but if it's occaional well that does happen and you have to anticipate or get a tone they repond to.

Aslo have you had his hearing checked - I know DS often felt like he wasn't listening but he had intermittent glue ear. Also boys that age do need a lot of exercise just being able to run around.

One of the things I never appreciated about having my second child is that I would sometimes feel hostility towards my first as a result
I had a close age gap but did both times feel like my older one were older than they were rather than still really young kids. That passed quickly for me - but I wonder if that's lingered for the OP - her 4 year old son doesn't sound out normal behvaior to me yet.

The licking slightly odd - could be sensory seeking behavior or just want some reaction from mum behavior.

I think you need to get checked for pnd - and I think you need some in person parenting classes - not least so you can talk to other parents and feel less alone. It's possible that you are seeing some ND or SEN in him and everyone else isn't yet and that may well become more obvious to others as he ages- but if you are only one he's not behavioing for than it's more likely a reponse to you.

Two of my three are ND - so were harder to parent in some ways but DH and I just got on with solving the next issue - and with some thing it took years and years for them to learn - they all late teens now but they all did.

I also wonder how much experience you have with 4 year old boys - how much do you see them around - so how able are you to judge his behavior as normal because it does read as if your expectations are of an older child but maybe they're not as he is a bit behind and needs more support.

No and I don’t plan to. But I am educated, I can and do read, I have tried various strategies and none of them really connect us very well. All I can do is try but relationships are two way. I can offer but ultimately if DS doesn’t respond then that ends there.

Sorry but this is wrong. You should be chomping at the bit to get any support you can get in the position you’re in. Parenting courses are often completely free and even if it doesn’t completely work, why wouldn’t you at least try it?

And as for “two way” realationships, that’s just not how it works with a 4 yr old. Their brains are still developing, they have little to no empathy and are more or less governed by impulse. They are not going to think “oh I’ll deliberately behave badly to wind mum up”. Of course he wants a relationship with you, he loves you and you’re his mum! You’re both just struggling to relate to each other but you are the parent and you have to be the bigger person- which might mean seeking outside help. And you have to keep trying, you can’t simply say “if DS doesn’t respond it ends there”, your job is to go back to basics and try something else/ go back to GP/ speak to an expert.

Agree with all this. Children do not come with an instruction manual. All those parenting books may work for some children, but ultimately they are all just trying to be instruction manuals. Which is great if you have a “standard model” child.

You aren’t a shit mum. You are wanting to correct his behaviour and create a bond to the point where it’s destroying you. A shit mother wouldn’t care enough, they’d let their child bang on the doors of toilet cubicles and happily let their children piss everyone around them off.

From what you’ve said I would also suspect some underlying explanation like neurodivergence (ADHD possibly). If it gets worse when his diet is poorer that also points to ADHD. And the thing to remember is ADHD presents so differently between individuals that I really wouldn’t rule it out just because he doesn’t present highly on some traits.

Anyway. Hugs to you. You sound so unhappy. I do think things will get better when he’s older and if you do have more of an explanation for this behaviour. This is a bloody tough stage and I wish I could wave a magic wand for you, or at least give you a crystal ball to show you that the future won’t always seem so dark.

I go through phases of feeling a bit of hostility towards my 4yo too, whose behaviour sounds similar to what you describe. I've noticed that I feel hostile towards him when I have unmet needs of my own (tired, hungry, needing a break, upset about something unrelated) and I think his out of control behaviour is often a reaction to feeling disconnected from me. When I'm feeling calm and content myself, I'm more likely to see his behaviour as just typical little kid stuff and either join in and be playful (e.g. roaring like lions, shouting as loud as we can), or calmly but firmly correcting and removing him if his behaviour is inappropriate, e.g. banging on doors, being too loud in public etc. He will also sometimes laugh when being corrected, and I've noticed for him it actually seems to indicate he's anxious, often because he can sense I am anxious. My advice would be to check in with how you're feeling when he's acting out and try to take care of your own needs first, you'll probably find he's actually reacting to you, not causing your negative feelings. Ignore anyone judging you, you clearly want to change this dynamic, so it's all about believing you can.

This, gentle parenting got nowhere with my sons. They respknd much better and actually now articulate that they prefer a sort of sargent major approach😂. If I give them an inch they take several miles!

Being annoying and not listening is quite a normal phase for this age- not all children obviously but some. My son was a bolter and while this was mostly to do with his ND it’s still terrifying as he wouldn’t/couldn't listen and stop so he had a buggy and reins which were taken everywhere until he was 6 and he started to be able to keep hold of my hand.

I’m not suggesting your son is ND but would the “threat” of reins when out and about work? As in “mummy gave you the chance to walk nicely and not run off. You ran off so now you have to be on reins until mummy can trust you”.

Btw: I don’t always like my kids all of the time either. Some days are really bloody long.

This is excellent advice, but unfortunately, the OP has stated she "doesn't plan to" go on any parenting courses.

Your son might be picking up on the fact that you don’t like him and is craving attention. Especially since you admit you prefer to spend time with his sibling. He might unintentionally or subconsciously be picking up on it.
secondly people are offering advice and your response is that doesn’t work, tried it, what am I supposed to do. But at age 4 what have you tried for a sustained period of time. For example if you give him a consequence for running off and then he runs off again later do you follow through with the consequence again or do you just fling your hands up and say that didn’t work?? You need to implement a consistent consequence over several incidents to see if it has impact.

I know know Ive already replied but I wouldn't initially jump to a SEN. Ds2 was like this for a while.
I'm wondering if ds is playing up because of the baby and it's his way of getting you attention.
I'm not saying you aren't giving him attention, of course not, but maybe in his eyes evertime he see you feed,play, change baby it's taking you away from him.

Don't wish you could turn the clock back. All this is fixable!
Also, it's probably been mentioned, if you can, have time just you and him may e at a soft play and McDonald's or whatever afterwards from time to time.

Ah OP I really feel for you.

I’ve had some success in the past with some of the strategies in How To Talk So Little Kids Listen and also some of Janet Lansbury’s stuff around respectful parenting and boundaries. It’s a tricky age with transitions and emotions, but if you find a sort of framework for consistency in how you deal with stuff I think it helps. Too many different methods just end up diluting it all, so I’d suggest finding something that resonates and sticking to it, as it might take time to see changes.

All behaviour is communication, so it might just be figuring out what’s he is trying to communicate. Is he in childcare? How’s his behaviour there?

When my son was 4 and his baby sister was 1, he was also really hard work. I think having a new baby in his life and starting school all had a massive effect on him. He would kick me, shout, ignore, refuse to get buckled in his car seat. Once I spent about 45 mins trying to get him
buckled in while the baby also screamed. It was horrible.

my son isnt ND. At the time, he had have a speech delay which I think massively contributed to his frustration. We had to be very firm with consequences such as taking away favourite toy, going to your room etc. but also we did lots of positive rewards too. If he got in the car seat sensibly all day, he got a little toy (like a cheap party bag one or something). If he was kind and gentle he got a sticker. This seemed to really help.

4 year olds are really hard work. You will get through this time. But he really is behaving quite normally for his age and for the fact he also has a new younger sibling too.

It's not clear to me if you and his Dad are still together?

This is not just your son, mine says things like I hate you and I hate my life, and go away. Sometimes they throw things, if they do it is a case of bite your lip and provide appropriate guidance and/or punishment.
Your child is not different, you can't take it personally, they are expressing what they feel in the moment and they have limited vocabulary and limited ability to know how to use words and tone of voice.
One thing is to not do too much. For example, steps down to a beach with a big drop, I just wouldn't have bothered with that and done something else. Iv'e spent days on holiday in the nearest soft play instead of visiting the actual local area as it was the least stressful thing for all of us. I had a 4 year old and a baby, it's tough. My 4 year old broke his arm jumping off a climbing frame when baby was about 4 weeks old, he decided to jump, for no reason off the platform bit at the top of a slide.
I found my son got easier to manage around age 8 or 9, until then I was run ragged!

Could you be trying to parent the child you want instead of the one you have? Are you connecting over the things he likes to play with, or are you trying to force activities that don't really hold his interest?
It sounds fairly normal boundary pushing behaviour, your reaction to it is obviously feeding it so I'd try ignore/redirect as much as possible and take the emotion out of it. Your baby will eventually be 4 and doing these same things to drive you mad remember so try not to compare them favourably.

This, sometimes I remember when I had my middle child my oldest would act out and be really annoying, licking us, having tantrums etc and in the throws of sleep deprivation etc I don't think I dealt with it great.

I think 3/4 is a particularly hard work age, they are frustrating and annoying, and then if you have a baby/toddler the contrast is even more obvious when they're still small and easy. Your child sounds normal if a bit of a handful and I think you're maybe just finding things a bit difficult which is understandable, do you have much support?

OP - you also don’t just wish you had one child. You wish you only had your second child. Can I ask how old your second child is? Are they at a non-demanding stage (unsure if they are still a baby)?
How did you feel about your DS either before your second was born, or when he was that age?
I think that is really relevant.

My eldest DS was incredibly challenging and I have had years and years where things were so tough and both of us wondered what on earth to do. But he’s older now and we have the best relationship. Please don’t give up on your DS. It can take so long to turn the ship and a massive part of that is changing your own mindset on this as the adult.

I feel for you!

No other advice other than yes to reigns! My ds was a runner and tall for his age but I insisted on reigns because he would just run with no care as to where we were, parks, busy roads, train stations, supermarkets. I'd have it wrapped round my wrist too and hold his hand, if I let go of his hand to get my purse or something, he would try to run so that's why I wrapped the strap round my wrist so I could pull him back.

I used to get people staring at us thinking why is a 4/5 yo on reigns but I could not give a flying fuck!! My 3 yo needed to be kept safe.

Have 1 to 1 time, go for a walk in the park, shops, wherever with the reigns on, strap wrapped around your wrist, talk about trusting him stay with you even if you let go of hand. Only when he can prove himself, will you let him off the reigns.

It was the only way my son learnt not to run off. I know it sounds harsh but tough love time. It was a very exhaustive process but needs must!

That feeling of having tried everything, having read loads of parenting books, having listened to loads of advice, having set loads of boundaries and nothing working is very very common for parents of neuro diverse kids.

Neither nursery or school will explicitly tell you that they have suspicions so you need to ask the question, and ask it outright. "DS is really struggling with some areas at home, and I have been wondering whether there might be something underlying going on for him. Have you seen any evidence of autism, ADHD or any learning difficulty."

There is nothing specificially in your OP that shouts out to me, but it's worth a read about the subject and to see if anything resonates.

I'd also try having some calm conversations with him and see if that makes a difference. You could start off with "I've noticed that you're having a hard time holding my hand when we're in a busy place and I'm wondering why that is?" and see what he says. "I've noticed that you've started licking me and your sister recently. What makes you feel like you want to lick us?"

I think it's more than likely that your child has some sort of additional needs, and that all the perfectly good ordinary parenting you are doing is not working because of those needs. Mumsnet with its obsession with 'love bombing', 'gently parenting'. very amateur psychology and love of guilt tripping is unlikely to help. I hope that some professionals may be able to help - with support from nursery, reception class at school.

Do your local health trust or GP service offer parenting courses? For various reasons (suspected SEN) we did one with my middle child- 1,2,3 magic and it really worked. It involves clearly stating what you want to happen calmly “Alfie I need you to stop banging on that door now” and then giving 3 chances. If they don’t do it they get some time out and then we discuss the behaviour and the consequence clearly. Not everyone agrees with it but it worked for us. I am also completely rigorous about following through with consequences.

It sounds to me as though you need to try to find a consistent and calm discipline technique and then use it relentlessly. Until you’ve worked that out I’d honestly keep days out with him to a minimum and use reins/ the pushchair.