To find DS4 so bloody annoying

I think all the people saying that's all completely normal behaviour are being a bit harsh on you. I've had 4 children and none of them would have behaved like that.

I'd definitely try your health visitor (or if he's at school, try the school nurse). It might be that you're worn down with it all and finding it hard to put proper consequences in place that you can stick to, or it might be he needs a bit of extra help understanding what's expected of him. But voicing it all to someone much more supportive than a mumsnet thread could really be helpful x

Very good point. You are expecting him to extrapolate “it’s rude to bang in the door when someone is using the loo” from “someone is in there”. It’s so obvious to an adult that “stop doing that” is what you meant but it’s not obvious at all to him. It makes him appear really naughty when he’s really just not learned what’s acceptable yet because he’s tiny.

I’m sorry you feel like this, kids are hard and this age (in my experience) is quite difficult.

I know this sounds stupid but try and be affectionate with him, remember when he was a baby and try and encourage those feelings again.

I know it sounds silly but it can sometimes help to put yourself in a different mindset, because right now you’re probably going round in circles with his negative behaviour.

I found very much the opposite, my kids where great from 3-8 then when they hit pre-teen (yes 8-12 IS the pre-teen/pre-pubity window) they start to get grumpy, boring and think they know better than you making every a struggle.

I would ask nursery how they feel about his attention skills and ability to follow instructions in a group setting. They may have noticed things but not have raised it.

Thsi is good idea.

I found I had to be short direct and very clear with older two with instructions with frequent reminds about what they were supposed to be doing. I think that was less obvious in group settings with DD1 as she'd copy other kids.

This OP is asking for support and everyone is just giving her shit. Can you honestly say that every child behaves like the OP is describing? Read her posts again and give her the benefit of the doubt instead of assuming you would do so much better in the same situation. My kids were annoying at that age for sure but there were also lots of kisses and cuddles and sweet moments. It was not like the OP describes. So yes I would say it is a unique problem and not the same as every other child.

He does sound annoying but LOADS of 4yo are annoying. Most of them become less annoying as they get so don’t see your entire future as having someone lick you and bang on doors. Some kids are quieter and less impulsive so easier to live with but you have to live with the child you have, not a fictional one.

It sounds like you see him as older than he is - probably due to him being massive and mature next to the baby. In reality he is only a little pre-school kid and older siblings sometimes regress and become babyish when mum is looking after a baby all day. Don’t have higher expectations than is appropriate at this stage.

He isn’t capable of not wanting a relationship with his mum. Would it even occur to you to say your relationship with his younger sibling needs to be two way? Do you get annoyed with her for her baby behaviour and blame her for not contributing to your relationship? You are talking about him like he’s a 20yo man who cba to visit his mum and forgets your birthday (and when he does show up you criticise him) and not a little boy trying to get you to engage. You need to really, really up your game in terms of interaction with him. Maybe you can do something active together every week such as swimming or climbing while his dad has the baby but also involve him in chores and spend time doing nice things at home more than you do now. You probably already do but it’s like trying to recall train a greyhound - you do what you do with a lab but x1000 - you don’t say “but my mums lab was much better than this with half as much training” - you say “my greyhound needs more than some other dogs” and then you get on with it. The worst thing you can do is try to avoid him.

Some people, especially kids, are much more sensitive to diet than others. Having a high quality diet and good gut health on top of a really reliable and safe daily routine with predictable boundaries can do wonders for behaviour.

Hi OP, just wanted to offer a handheld because this sounds really exhausting and upsetting for you. I've had days where I feel similar but a bad day is usually followed by a good day so I can imagine how hard this must be when it's bad day after bad. Ignore the posters who are just sticking the boot in and making you feel bad. Parenting is hard fot most people but everyone's situations are different and those who are acting as if it's all your fault or giving you common sense simplistic answers dont know your child or the realities of your day to day life. I have found a few people extremely helpful with parenting, mostly through Instagram which I know sounds trite and like they are all unqualified influencers but they are actually psychologists and other experts who have really helped me. Feel free to DM me if you'd like their details. Most of them have loads of free resources! And they may be able help you decipher it there are additional needs at play. Keep your chin up x

Where did you holiday? I remember we booked one UK holiday to a seaside town with a 5 and 2 year old and left the next day, it was so stressful and we realised it after 24 hours in the beautiful but boutique hotel.
Holidays are sooo hard with kids. We then only went on holidays that offered creche and childrens clubs for a good number of years. Oue son was soo energetic that I could not do a holiday that didn't offer these things. Recommend only booking breaks away that offer the creche and day clubs for the kids, otherwise all you are doing is taking your every day stress and adding a strange environment, a worse diet, taking away all home comforts and making your life harder, so not a holiday!!

Another example; we’re waiting for the toilet and someone’s in it. DS tried the door and obviously it’s locked. I say clearly ‘someone is in there.’ He won’t stop banging on the door. I have to literally pretty much rugby tackle him down to stop him and he’s still giggling and trying to open the door. The look I got.

You’re not being clear enough IMO. He doesn’t need to hear that there’s someone in there. That makes it into a game. “No, don’t touch the door.” Super clear, no additional, unnecessary information. Keep repeating. Do not get side tracked by questions. Just firm NO and a hard hold on him. He’s only 4, he needs loving boundaries.

I find 4 a very wearing age. I have three children 16, 6, 3 and it's been tough with all of them. 3yo is 4 in August and not quite in the frustrating stage yet but getting there.

I think for me it's two things - my eldest two both have ADHD, and it makes them very intense, but 4 is too young for it to have been identified in either of them so I was just sort of stuck windmilling against this little stubborn troll/emotional tornado. Better with DS2 (as in, my second son) because I had some idea plus had been there before, but still trying.

But also I think I am very well suited to parenting the toddler years (roughly 18 months - 3.5) and the 4-7 ish age is a very different stage and I struggle with it.

I don't know if everyone would like him, but I've been finding the reels by iam.mrluke helpful in rekindling some appreciation for this age, his videos where he play acts the ~5yos in his class are very sweet and I find that I can sort of adopt his "voice" in responding to my 6yo and it helps avoid some of my frustrated/irritated responses, which just escalate things rather than help.

4 is different because - they feel so much older, and at times they can be very sensible and grown up so you can get this sense that they "should know" things by now e.g. rules or expectations, but they are still very little. When I was struggling with DS1 many years ago someone on MN said "4yos are still babies really" and I've never forgotten it. It seemed incredible to call them babies when I compared him to my friends' younger children, and I think it's even more stark when you have two close together in age so you can see a literal baby as a comparison. But compared with much older children, they really are at a very young stage of development still.

Connection is only part of the story - I think this can be a harmful narrative because some resources suggest if you have enough of a connection, then they will be perfectly behaved at all times so if you are finding them difficult, it's your fault for not being connected enough - which is unhelpful. Obviously if they don't feel connected and listened to, that's not good, but they can also just act like butts for absolutely no good reason! That's four!

What I do find helpful is to dial back expectations a little bit and be proactive with physical needs - regular small meals and snacks, keep reminding them to go to the toilet, have a "try for a poo for 5 mins" planned into your bedtime routine. Not too much screen time, and try to be mindful/observant of what effect different kinds of screen time have - certain youtube channels drive my kids absolutely hyper and have been banned. In fact, in my house it's better if they only watch iPlayer or something like Netflix (and again, go through and ban annoying programmes). Time limits as well, especially if they are playing computer games. You'll probably need to experiment if this is an issue for you.

Also predictable structure throughout the day, use a visual schedule/timetable if you like, this seems to work well. Breaking the day into sort of "buckets" helps me with this, and trying to get everyone outside for some fresh air and exercise. If I really, really can't do this then something physical inside helps a lot. DH is king of dance parties. I tend to set up obstacle courses or put a single duvet down on the floor and roll them up in it then pretend they are a "sausage roll" with much pretend chopping, seasoning and eating which they find hilarious and can help a lot.

I think the thing with 4 is that you have to be much more explicitly in command, often against what they want to do, and I struggle with that, whereas toddlers will go with the flow a lot more, and older children can have more autonomy without it being a disaster. Does that ring true to you?

Best book I have read at this age is "When Your Kids Push Your Buttons" by Bonnie Harris, which is only 99p on kindle.

Other things which have been useful:

Janet Lansbury - blog/podcast, on holding boundaries without threat/punishment and some stuff about emotions and being a confident leader.

Occuplaytional Therapist - big mix of sensory stuff and unconventional parenting takes, parent emotional regulation, some developmental stuff.

ABCs of Everyday Parenting course (free, on Coursera) - positive reinforcement, breaking behaviour expectations down into smaller steps to make them more achievable.

TheOTButterfly - sensory info, which can help keep them in a better mood

Big Baffling Behaviours by Robyn Gobbel - explains regulation using animal metaphors. Book is better than podcast IMO. Helpful for "WTF do I do in the moment when they are crazy??"

Dr. Becky - I find her mixed, but I like her approach of giving 1 thing to do in the moment and 1 thing to do outside of the moment.

theteachermomma - She is a US Kindergarten teacher, and has good insights about this age (~4-7) and tends to pick up on common struggles parents make with moving from parenting more appropriate to younger children into this stage.

I'm not trying to diagnose but he sounds a lot like my DS5 on his bad days, and he is autistic (and I think ADHD is quite likely). I have a great relationship with him and like being with him a lot, but he is a much more challenging child to parent than my younger DD is.

I would ask nursery how they feel about his attention skills and ability to follow instructions in a group setting. They may have noticed things but not have raised it.

I find a mixture of setting very clear expectations and plans before activities, speaking to him without distractions, checking I have his attention and using his name before I give instructions (and making him repeat them back to me), helps a bit. I also try to agree expectations E.g "if we walk this way, we should hold hands to be safe, yes? Otherwise, I don't think we should do it." This might sound like I'm not being stern enough, but of course, I impose rules when I need to. Also, only one person speaks to him at a time - my son also plays up more when it's me and his dad with him, and my instinct is that it's the increased complexity of the social interaction that gets him anxious, fizzy, and reduces his ability to just bloody listen to me...

Oh gosh OP, how horrible for you both.

It's good that you've acknowledged how you feel. Now you definitely need to get some support.

I would suggest you reach out to social services and explain the situation and ask for help. You could also try speaking to your local CAMHS service and ask their advice on where to get support with building a bond and an attachment.

You need professional help to build an attachment with your son. You know that. I know it's hard to admit in real life what you have admitted here on Mumsnet, but the sooner you do so, to a professional, the sooner you can get some real support.

Please reach out to social services TODAY

I really really feel you. Four is hard anyway, and then add in a new sibling into the mix. I’m in the thick of it too. We both have strong autism and ADHD tendencies in our families and, while we aren’t currently exploring a diagnosis yet, we are following a lot of the PDA techniques as we feel it can’t hurt.

DS is hugely bright, very active & highly sensitive, which is an exhausting combination. Add in to that my own sensitivities and sleep deprivation, my reactions aren’t always as I would want.

Things that have worked for us:

Keeping a routine and using a chart and timer to help with transitions.

Reducing requests (instead of asking what he wants for breakfast, I just state I’m having Weetabix and he normally then says what he wants).

Making sure we have 1:1 time doing something he enjoys and having zero expectations, except he needs to be safe. We also have a bath together regularly which helps with bedtime as it’s spending time together.

Making time for myself to ensure I’m as regulated as I can be, which helps me pick my battles and my reactions.

Happy to you to DM me because sometimes it’s just solidarity that you need.

Have you had his hearing tested?

It was really hard with DS - intermittent glue ear - as he just pas the hearing test and then just failing. By 6 it was gone.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/glue-ear/

It's really common - apparently I had it as a child as well - (though with both DS and me there was also underlying language processing issues as well).

Do you think there maybe an underlying issue with him? NOT saying he has but my son was a pain in the arse still is at 13 but he was diagnosed with ADHD at 4 because he was just so different to other kids. Never walked anywhere he ran, had sensory issues and literally had no emotion whatsoever! It's hard I know x

.

I expect he’s becoming more hostile towards you because he feels your negativity.

At 2, most of this is in the realms of normal and he will probably grow out of it naturally.

@hoppingandhop - you posted this earlier ..............

All I can do is try but relationships are two way. I can offer but ultimately if DS doesn’t respond then that ends there.

What do you mean by 'it ends there'?

Sounds so tough op - have you looked into adhd?

Sounds difficult for you all.
How does he behave at school or nursery or with other family members?

You’ve mentioned several times that he doesn’t listen to you. Have you had his hearing tested? He might just need grommets.

The diet thing - have you kept a diary - I know DD1 inattentive ADHD reacted to certain dyes not the usual one - as did one of my second cousins in 80/90 one now banned.

There is research that suggests we attribute poor behavior to sugar when it'a actaually nothing to do with it and it's more the environement.

So a food diary to see any links could help.