To find DS4 so bloody annoying

I’ve read the posts and there’s a couple of points I thought of.

I don’t think relationships are 2 way when they are 4 or young children. You are their primary attachment. It’s not their job to reciprocate as you are their carer. You’re not seeing the situation clearly here and putting unfair expectations on your child.

also the rejection you’re feeling and insecurity about him hating you- please speak to someone about it eg a counsellor as they’ll help you reframe it and see it differently. It’s really not personal. Also check for depression as you sound really worn down by it all, but seeing your 4 year old as causing this when you are actually in charge and responsible should ring alarm bells.

i see a lot of this behaviour as bids for attention to establish connection. The more you pull away the more insecure they will feel. Until eventually they give up. It’s not their fault you had another baby so now can’t provide the parenting they need.

equally you didn’t know what it would entail either- no way you can until you’re in it. You’ve done some great things here to help connection but also safety wise - yes to rains and pram at an old age like 4 if child isn’t making good decisions yet.
their safety is still your job even if you’re holding a baby. I really hope it improves soon. I know you weren’t looking for advice but perhaps you should consider some of it here.

I've not RTFT but that's all sensory seeking behaviour OP.

Definitely ask for extra support. There are lots of free parenting courses at the local family hubs based of the age and stage of your child. At this age (as you probably already know) negative behaviour is a form of seeking attention from the parent. A small set amount of time (10 mins even is fine) where you sit down together and allow him to play will make him feel secure and that her can receive attention for positive behaviour not just running off etc. It’s also normal for kids behaviour to go down the pan when a sibling is born as sharing the attention of the parent is a big change. The more you project that you ‘prefer’ the new sibling the more of a negative spiral there will be of him acting up and you disliking him. Remember that having a big brother will be really important for your DD so nurturing close family bonds between all of you will also benefit her.

He sounds a lot like mine at 4yo - later diagnosed with ASD and ADHD.

Not responding to his name / "nobody's home"
Licking (sensory seeking)
Not picking up on social cues that someone's had enough or cross
Not caring (or seeming to care) that someone is getting annoyed until they're actually shouting
Random noise-making (vocal stimming)
Persistent asking for things (dopamine seeking)
Worse when out of routine and away on holiday

I think it would be worth a conversation with nursery to see if any of this is seen in the nursery setting too.

I have a really well behaved 3.5 year old but we have times when he just doesn't listen and it does my head in, it's very hard not to get frustrated and wound up! Don't beat yourself up for feeling so negatively about his behaviour, it's hard ans it must be so difficult for you when it feels constant.

I know you're not looking for advice but we found starting a reward jar woth pom poms really helped to get better listening. When the jar gets full he gets to choose a toy in the shop, we keep it to about £10 so nothing huge. We started rewarding the tiniest things like if he listened to something the first we'd say brilliant that was good listening you can have a pom pom for that. He also gets 1 sweet when he puts one in and its really helped him listen quicker as time has gone on

OP I'm hearing all about how your son is with you but were is his dad in all this? I'm not seeing from your posts and I may have missed it, but what is his dad doing? Is his dad reinforcing the no and the stop etc?

Sounds really difficult OP, I don’t have any advice sorry, but it’s good you can vent here and I really hope you find a resolution soon, some useful advice on here or he just grows out of it. Good luck.

Hi there OP

i know you didn’t want advice but I couldn’t help but suggest a few things that have worked for us. We have a similar child- impulsive, doesn’t respond like a typical child to instructions. I know how hard it is.

A few ideas:

-deep pressure. Look up deep pressure online. It’s kind of like a massage of the shoulders and arms- putting pressure on the muscles. This can calm the nervous system. If you notice your child behaves like this more outside, take time to do it every 10- 15 mins.

Offer something to squeeze or one of this exercise bands to stretch as this also helps with sensory seeking and regulation. The licking sounds like sensory seeking.

When your child doesn’t listen to verbal instructions use a really exaggerated (you can use a funny/comical tone) to get the attention. Really ham it up and use physical gestures like putting a hand up in front of you or making an exaggerated sad face when he won’t stop licking.

Offer choices between two options.

When walking- hold hands until you can trust him. Playing green light/red light is a good way to get control if he runs away. Red light means stop.

lastly- speak to your health visitor.

I

Being able to recognise how you feel and ask for advice is really positive and the first step to changing it around. You should speak to the health visitor about how you feel and ask for support from them. Things may get easier when he starts school, he will have more stimulation and if you're a SAHP you will be better able to focus on the relationship with him as you will have school hours to focus on the younger one and do the stuff that needs doing like housework and shopping. It does sound like he had a lot of energy and is sensory seeking, more physical activity might help, things like trampolines and balance beams.

And that is the time to try something else until you get something that works.
When my two were little (3 yr gap), on tough days when my DH was on op tour for 6 months for example, by late afternoon I’d be like ‘arghhhh, just go and play - I need to make tea and you’re hanging off my legs!’

So then I realised I needed before that stage, to make a coffee to boost my low energy and pretend that I was being employed as their nanny! Once I took a step back and planned an activity, did some tidying, talked in a much more Disney-style voice, pretended I was being employed to look after them, it made those afternoons sooooo much easier!

They reacted with renewed enthusiasm, as did I! I know it sounds like a strange thing to do but I told friends when they were struggling too and they said it worked really well!

A 4 yr old totally knows (even subconsciously) when you’re worn down and when they’ve worn you down and if you switch that around and become more elevated and fun (even though you’re shattered), they will often respond to it like you’re this new, fun mum they love spending time with and will do as they’re told/asked.

If he really is such a flight risk then reins is the only way- especially if you have another little one. No matter what his age if he needs them he needs them. He can ‘earn’ not using them by holding hands, walking nicely etc

When my kids were younger we would play the game freeze when I couldn't hold everyone's hand (have 3). So let him walk, then shout freeze when he is too far ahead until you reach him. I also found giving the older kid a dolls buggy so that they couldn't go too fast and you could always hear them. It is exhausting when they are that age.

You do realise he's 4? You are attributing adult emotions and behaviour to a 4 year old, only-just-not-a-baby child, who also happens to be your child and your responsibility. It's not up to him to "make an effort" to have a relationship with you. He already has a relationship with you, that of mother and child. And in that relationship, you are most definitely the one who must make an effort because you are not only his mother, you are the adult. Stop making excuses. Take a deep breath and keep going. Parenting is hard, it's also tricky and it's a very, very emotional ride. I'll tell you what it sounds like to me, you've always really, really wanted a daughter. He wasn't that, but he was what you got and you made the most of a bad job. Then you got your daughter and he was sidelined. He's only 4 but he knows he's not as important to you, because kids always do know. I might be wrong here, but I have actually seen this happen in another family and it was so sad. Get some help now. He needs you to. A good first step would be mentioning that you are struggling to the health visitor. They might be able to point you in the right direction at the very least. You do realise that how you handle this will also have implications for how his relationship with his sister develops?

Your DS sounds as if he’s “bolting” - which is much more than just running away. The bolter usually doesn’t respond to their name or shouts when they do this. Which is a behaviour that can occur with autism. (I am in no way trying to randomly diagnose - just highlighting)

He also seems to be sensory seeking. Pls do ask nursery for an evaluation - even if it’s just to rule neurodiversity out.

The reason so many of us with additional needs kids jump in to suggest neurodivergence is that we recognise the behaviours from our own experience. Threads such as this, will always attract parents of ND kids.

Posters who don’t have first hand experience of this type of behaviour (because of ND, or otherwise) - are probably not the best people to dish out advice.

Could he maybe be neurodivergent? Has school said anything about his behaviour ?

Ah this sounds really hard - nobody prepares you for the rage you feel as a second time mum. I had what felt like a real aversion to my eldest when my daughter was born. He was also 4. Suddenly he seemed to have doubled in size and all I saw was germs and risk for a little while. We’re a few years in and it’s definitely got easier as the little one has got bigger and less vulnerable.

Give yourself some grace - do you have help and support? My eldest’s relationship with his dad really blossomed when I had my youngest. I had to do a lot of ‘I know you’re still really little and you need me and this is hard for you, but I need to keep you safe and if you can’t do as I ask we need to go home’. And then follow through. I always found when things were tricky that it helped to focus on how little his hands still were and this helped me to connect with him still being tiny and needing his mama.

OP, I really feel for you.
My youngest is a bit of a tear away and can be defiant and say things like ‘I hate you’ and ‘I wish you’d never been born’ but the next day she will be saying ‘you’re the best mummy in the world and hugging me repeatedly so it kind of makes up for it and you take the rough with the smooth, it sounds like you don’t get those lovey moments to counteract the difficult ones.

Just remembered something that worked when mine was little. I got really good at anticipating trigger points. Take the toilet situation; I'd have clocked the wait so would have done something before the door banging started.

Pulling faces in the mirror, flicking him with water, asking him who the best ninja turtle was etc. sure, I got judged as a rubbish parent but it was lesser of two evils.

Even now he's a teenager, we still say "match the vibe" before we step into a new place. As an adult I still find some situations unbearable and boring but there's loads of socially acceptable ways to self soothe (hello phone) your son needs your help in difficult situations. He's not intrinsically "bad" or "naughty" he's operating on a less socially sophisticated system.

Take the shouting, the random, annoying shouting. That is something that's probably worked well in a loud, child based environment. Either to socially bond positively or emotionally regulate. He knows it's worked before so he's trying again. Clever, but he needs your help and guidance to match the behaviour to the situation

I know previous posters have already mentioned ADHD/ASD but I think you should also look into attachment disorders. A distant primary caregiver can have a huge negative impact on a child's development. You say your bond is a two way street but he is not able to pick up the phone and call the health visitor so you will have to do it. They will be able to signpost you to parenting courses and other help available. There is no shame in accessing help and you need to act now otherwise things will only get worse.

He was in a public toilet and was repeatedly banging on a door while there was a woman trying to go to the toilet.
That is totally unacceptable. I’m amazed that you don't think it’s a problem.

I think you should get this explored. I don't have boys but I'm shocked by people saying running off in dangerous situations is normal behaviour for the age, no it's bloody not, he's not 2.

My nephew also had terrible behaviour until he got his grommets. Something else to check?

Unlike the "Mumsnet obsession" of diagnosing all children who show any undesirable behaviour with SEN. Young children run off and misbehave. They need consistent guidance and boundaries from their adults in order to navigate the world. This is the reason a large majority of parents say their children are fine at school/nursery where the expectations and rules are clearly and appropriately explained.

OP in my opinion you need to explain to your son what you expect of him before you do anything and explain the consequence for not doing this.

"We are going to the park/walk and you need to hold my hand. If you don't we will turn around and come home."

Stick to this consequence (no matter how shit it is), be consistent. As for when at home, we used the time out method (I know some parents don't agree with this). 1 min per year of age from age 2. It's tough going but it's the consistency of consequences he can understand.

Here's a link for NHS talking therapies info and how to find services in your area.
https://www.nhs.uk/nhs-services/mental-health-services/find-nhs-talking-therapies-for-anxiety-and-depression/