To find DS4 so bloody annoying

By the way, when I say "everything you describe reads like normal four year old boy stuff to me" I mean, I've known little boys who did absolutely all of it. Randomly haring off out of nowhere in a park / supermarket / busy street. Licking people because the reaction is funny. Randomly shouting "AHHHH!" for no apparent reason. Building a collection of bogeys along the side of the bed.

See? It really is all normal. And you don't even have that last one to contend with.

And you know what? Every one of those boys, even bogey boy, turned out perfectly normal. So have hope.

Do you have much experience with boys of that age, OP? Younger siblings, children of friends, anything like that?

I'll be honest - every once in a while you get a little boy who is a complete and utter lamb. Boys can absolutely have the same gentle temperment you often find in girls. But . . . most boys don't. And I don't think it's all how they're socialised. There seems to be something in them that makes most boys louder, more reckless, and more inclined to throw themselves around and smash things down than girls. (I say this as a staunch feminist, by the way. It just is what it is.)

This can come as a shock to mums. Social media, parenting books and even your friends often don't show this reality, so when your child acts the way you describe, you feel like you've failed in parenting. Or you must have a child with ADHD or something. This can't be normal, can it?

OP, it's completely normal. Everything you described reads like typical four year old boy stuff to me. The fact he only bolted twice in nine months is good! I can understand how horrifying that moment must have been for you, but I promise you, every parent gets at least one of those horrific, heart-in-mouth moments when the kids are that age. You take your eyes off them for a second and when you look back it's an instant heart attack. That's normal!

It's also normal for kids to need the message repeated a few times for it to really sink in. They've got the survival instincts of lemmings at that age. They really do. It's not that he's deliberately disregarding you. He just doesn't have that sort of permanance in his thinking yet. You know how kids can watch the same episode of their favourite tv show every single day and never get bored of it? While your brain is melting out of your ears? Remember that, when you're tempted to think he's disobeying on purpose. Remind yourself, he's a goldfish at this age, and there's a reason those who work with children need the patience of saints.

Some of the most accurate depictions of boys I've seen in fiction where in shows like Malcolm in the Middle or Outnumbered. Or Lynette Scavo's boys in Desperate Housewives. I've known people who thought the boys in those shows were supposed to be bad, or exaggerated for comic effect. Er . . . no. Not really. Not by much!

I think part of your struggle to connect is that you feel you've got a 'bad' child, and it reflects poorly on your parenting. It might help to realise there's nothing wrong with him or you. You just need to find a style of parenting that works for you both. Maybe you take him to the park and tire him out as much as humanly possible, and find that makes a difference. Maybe you tell him something fifty five times, and then suddenly the fifty sixth time it clicks, and you never have to tell him again, and you have no idea why. You'll figure it out. Steer clear of the ooey-gooey gentle parenting type books, if you don't find they help, and don't be afraid to seek out content specifically about boys.

You can get your relationship with him back on track. DS probably is sensing your frustration here, and it's probably not helping. Again, that's normal and natural. But it doesn't have to escalate or become an entrenched dynamic between you. If you catch yourself telling yourself a negative story ("I'm resenting him again", "I think he hates me", "what if it's always like this?") try to shut it down and stay in the moment. Remind yourself you're doing your best and you don't have to fall into those old patterns of thinking. If they're not helpful, push them out of your mind and focus on now instead.

Cut yourself some slack, and don't give up. You can do this.

No advice but he does sound very annoying. I’d lose my shit at the licking. It’s disgusting and the kid needs to learn boundaries and personal space.

Hi OP. I have not read the whole thread but only some parts.

I have read your post and my DS is exactly the same. He listens to his dad (sometimes) but not me. He is my one and only so I don’t know what is happening in my case. He’s a lovely child at nursery but turns out he switches off his listening ears as we call it here at home.

so we have to doubly check with him if his listening ears are on before we start and activity. We also say mid activity that we won’t do it anymore because he has stopped listening. Or take a few steps in the opposite direction to him to say we’re going back bye and he comes back running.

whining is a lotttttt !! I’ve had to tackle him through crowded Sainsbury twice for a toy that wasn’t for his age.

I have complete empathy with you. I am in the same boat.

Feel free to ignore these suggestions OP as I know you’re not looking for advice - but I’ll put them down in case helpful, as they’re things that really helped me with my 4yo son, and might be useful to you or to other posters going through the same thing.

1. Praise - on average kids get criticised and / or corrected 10x more than they get praised, where they really need that ratio to be reversed. And it has to be done in a particular way; the praise needs to be specific, immediate, and delivered at eye level with warm physical contact. So for example if my son is nice to my baby I’ll crouch down to meet his eye, give his arm a squeeze and say ‘the way you spoke to your sister just now was so kind and gentle. I really love the way you smile at her and tell her she’s cute. You’re a good big brother.’ And I’ll do this like fifty times a day, any time he does something good. It feels awkward and overkill at first, then it becomes second nature, and kids in general will SOAK it up and really benefit from that connection.

2. Instructions for 4 year olds need to be broken down into the tiniest steps. It sounds really obvious, but even an instruction like ‘hold my hand on these steps’ can be too remote or large for them to really get it. You might have more success with micro instructions - ‘come here. Stand beside me. Hold my hand. Walk with me. Come down these steps.’

3. Physical prevention is a necessity. I have to physically intervene to stop undesirable behaviour all the time. The example you gave of the door banging is a good one. The first time it happens, just physically remove him (gently but firmly) from the vicinity of the door so he can’t reach it. Same if he’s throwing things / touching things he shouldn’t etc. Accompany the instruction with a physical action preventing him from continuing. He needs help; he has no impose control and can’t understand consequences, so when he’s banging the door all he’s thinking about is how fun that is, and a request that he stop simply won’t permeate. A request that he stop accompanied by you physically helping him to stop will make it much clearer to him.

I’m confused

You say you wished you’d stopped after having your DS and not gone on for a second child.

Is this because DS behaviour has deteriorated since number 2 was born?

My ds didn't respond to any of the 'how to talk' suggestions. They worked very well on dd but ds just shouted through it. "You've smashed that pot ds, I understand you're feeling angry" etc. didn't cut through the constant shouting and running off.

He did calm down now. He's actually very sensitive and will sit and listen but its never when I want him to!

I feel your frustration. I think a good routine post-easter will go a long way.

Yet again people seek to pathologise the behaviour of a lively little boy and a fed up Mum.

It will pass. Children like to move a lot.

Also, don't discount ADHD if he doesn't seem "hyper", inattentive ADHD lacks the hyper fidgety behaviour but can have a strong element of impulsivity.
I very much recognise what you say about the not stopping when told until you really go mad and then he is scared. DS was like that and it is soooo hard to deal with. It was like he couldn't stop and pull back until he had pushed it way way too far iyswim. But it was awful. Remaining completely calm and ignoring worked best but sometimes that's not possible because the behaviour is dangerous and then you are on the unstoppable path to shouting and scaring and a massive upset. We talked each time about what had happened and tried techniques for him to calm down in the moment etc but nothing really worked.

I agree with this. Feral racoon and all.

Dear OP,

I read your replies but not all the other posters, so I hope I am not repeating anything.

You do sound angry, but I have been there myself in some way or another with my own children. I had at one point gone crazy as three of my children rolled melons down the Tesco aisle. It isn’t fun and took days for me to calm down.

I had a runner as well, but I was lucky that he never ran away in a dangerous place and that I was a fast runner myself. I was always able to catch him. He used to have a great teacher that would make him run around the playground at least once before he would sit and work. He is undiagnosed, but always assumed he has ADHD / autism. Now he is 15 years old and he is not running anywhere - wont even move off his computer chair.

The behaviour you are describing reminds me of him, he would be impulsive but I would make sure he had a lot of exercise (swings at the park / running with a ball / walking around the country). We are generally more prone to hyperactivity from chocolates/sweets in our family, so I had to keep it down to a minimum (only on a Saturday afternoon, still a family tradition).

Another example of a child in a nursery I worked in included a child with ADHD, and he would be a risk taker (jumping off really high places, going upside down on a see-saw, running super fast and sliding everywhere / handstands). It reminds me of this situation, and I wonder if your nursery have seen him take risks such as these? He had difficulties with impulse control, and was always close to hurting himself. It was unusual because he was a very bright child and he was meeting all his early years milestones.

You mentioned that he is worse when both you and your DH are there, and this could also be a sign that he is (also) seeking attention from you. Some children are super smart, and they know what buttons to push to get attention, and any attention is good even if they are being told off. In those instances they say to give attention and praise when you see good behaviour and eventually they will respond.

Good luck, hope I didn’t rabbit on too much.

My youngest son (aged 3) is like this. He just doesn't listen. He touches (/breaks) everything. You have to hold his hand the whole time you are out because he will just run off. He is like a ninja and escapes from underneath the restaurant table when you turn for 5 seconds to get the ketchup. We have done everything we did with our older two but it just didn't/doesn't work with him, and I know others must judge us when out and about. Heck, I would have judged us until id experienced it.

He also has additional needs; he is on a support plan at nursery and usually has 121 support there. (Side note: sometimes I think it might be harder if your child is borderline SEN as then you get less support/understanding.)

There have been several moments when I have thought how much life would have been easier if we'd stopped at two. BUT I also love and enjoy him fiercely. My husband would probably write something similar to you and I feel gutted that for him the struggles outweigh the magic.

I have found getting involved with local neurodiverse parenting groups (online and in-person) helpful, as its reassuring to hear from other parents and helpful to take away techniques. E.g. my son is very sensory seeking so we do sensory circuits and there was a great resource I was given called 'making sense of sensory behaviour'. Reading that was like a lightbulb moment for me. And even if your child isn't neurodiverse the principles would help any child.

I also try to pick my battles and lower my expectations. I know, for example, that even though he is toilet trained I can't let him go into a hotel bathroom solo because he WILL lock it. Or drink from the toilet bowl. Or take his socks off and throw them down the toilet. So I just don't let him go into a hotel bathroom solo.

I also try to slow down to do more of the things I enjoy with him (mostly physical stuff because he is SO physical and loves it). The more we bond and have fun together the more he seems to listen - although even then it's v v selective listening.

I don't always get it right and there are certainly tough/draining days but overall the good outweighs the bad.

The fact you are raising this shows you care and are concerned. I really hope things get better for you both and that you found some useful advice here💐

Some of this rings bells with me. DS was diagnosed with inattentive ADHD much later at 13 but was a "difficult" child to parent in some of the ways you describe.
It was hard and lonely because I think people probably just thought I was doing a crap job. But all the usual advice didn't work at all.

I'm going to be the honest one here: you wish your child doesn't exist because you are getting annoyed by his behaviour for which you have responsibility to parent.

It's postnatal depression at best, selfish narcissism at worst.

Hell my child annoys the living lights out me recently but I could not imagine my life without that feral racoon.

I echo everyone's elses sentiment of getting help from your HV because wishing you wouldn't have had your child is not normal parent mentality.

You are the adult, you are the parent. You have to change YOUR behaviour to make it work. Get it together because you can't tell me there is not a shred of love for that child.

Absolute infuriating post to read, wishing a child wouldn't be there because of getting licked and whining.

Get help.

This is really hard to read tbh. My nephew behaved similarly and was diagnosed with autism. He had a particularly bad spell around 4/5.

I can't help but feel that your feelings towards him are potentially fuelling the behaviour. Children can pick up on negativity.

It's good you can be honest and get your feelings out but regretting he was born is a problem and I think you should ask for some official support. I have friends who have done the same when they have dealt with behavioural issues. I know you said you don't want advice but you need to move forward somehow.

@hoppingandhop I know you mentioned you have tried lots of parenting books but have you read the Explosive Child? I found it really useful in understanding my child more and thinking about how I approached things.

Also, from what you have said about your son, have you considered that he might have a sensory processing disorder? It sounds like this might explain some of the things you mentioned about not recognising bodily sensations and the not listening/responding to you. The NHS has some online resources called That Makes Sense (also on youtube) that may be worth having a look at.

I highly doubt you are the only parent ever to have thought how much easier life would be with one child - it doesn't mean you don't love your son x

OP, please go easy on yourself. Sounds like you’re trying really hard to have a better relationship with your son so well done for trying.

I am in a similar situation. I find my DS (7) such hard work and most of the time he just seems to despise me. He adores his dad but quickly loses his temper at me.

As a result, some days I avoid him which probably makes things worse. DP says I need to try harder, but it’s exhausting and I don’t know how to break the cycle.

Hopefully your son will turn a corner soon.

@hoppingandhop just wanted to send you squishes. Massive ones.

mine are now 31 and 24 and I recall the days of wishing I had a Time Machine and to return to just the one child. Mine were the other way round. First born was so chilled out and I loved being a mum to him. DS2 came along and oh my lord. I was not ready.

years of one issue after another with sleep, diet, development, temper, everything.

He was diagnosed with Asperger’s at around 7 years old and it made so much sense looking back.

you will find a way to get through this and he will become a fabulous child again I’m sure.

but Dad needs to get in the same page - I feel it’s even more important with children like ours. No being soft etc when both parents have agreed certain boundaries, behaviours and expectations.

good luck. This will pass.

Have you explored neurodiversity of some sort? PDA/asd/adhd?

I feel you OP. I too have a nearly 4 year old who can't do what they're told and are constantly pushing me to shouty mummy stage.

My childminder calls it the 'fucking fours'.

Ah, OP, you’ve had a hard time on this thread. To me it sounds like you’re a great mum who is trying her best to deal with her difficult ds.

Have a 🍷 and a 🛀 this evening. Try to relax. Tomorrow is another day.

when you’re back in routine and your ds is rested and well fed, I’m sure things will look brighter.

I don’t believe it’s always down to parenting and sometimes just personality.

Ds1 (3) is wonderful but has always been very intense since a newborn. Even in the womb he was kicking constantly. I remember the HV was shocked at his 9-12 month check up as he threw an almighty tantrum in front of her.I have a photo of him being pulled out of me during my c section and he was batting the surgeons hands out the way.😂He used to head-bang and throw himself on the floor if anything didn't go his way. He gets glowing nursery reports and is very popular. He’s calmed down a lot now and no longer tantrums but still needs a very strict schedule and to burn energy daily.

On the other hand, ds2 is much more placid and laid back. Even his cry is much more gentle like a baby lamb compared to ds1 who used to bellow and scream at his age. I was pleasantly shocked how he will happily sit in his buggy/car seat/high chair, which ds1 wouldn’t do.

Sensory issues? Er no.For God's sake he is a little 4 year old. It will pass.

Try the incredible years - its a good book or audiobook
I did the parenting course and found it do helpful (twice in fact - once when mine were all under 4 and second time when they were all later primary school as support was so good)

As a mum of 3 loud and boisterous boys the behaviour you describe does sound a little more than “normal” and does sounds exhausting so you have my sympathy. My 4 year old has his moments but then is the sweetest and funniest boy so I can manage the tantrums!

With all my boys I’ve noticed a direct link between food, sleep, exercise and behaviour. If they are full, well rested and have exercised that day they are a joy. If they are hungry, tired and haven’t done anything physical they can be grumpy, moody and fight each other.

there’s a book called “ how to talk to kids so they will listen “ which is worth a read.

I do think you need to keep in mind it might be something neurodivergent going on especially if sensory issues already been detected. Does he have empathy for others. A few months ago I was exhausted as not very well and parenting alone and all the boys were just going a bit wild and I ended up crying . They all stopped. Older boys immediately asked what was wrong and what could they do and said sorry for being noisy and fighting and youngest one cuddled me. If you got upset would he care / be upset?