The pope has died

The Catholic church desperately needs change. The chasm between what the average Joe at Sunday Mass believes and practices, and what the hierarchy decrees, is vast. And that cannot be sustainable for much longer?

There is a revival happening in the Catholic church and it's people seeking tradition, clarity and deep spirituality and mysticism.
The Latin masses and high masses are full of young people.

The Catholic church is also strong in Africa where the teaching is very traditional, conservative and mystical.

It seems to me that the people who say the Catholic church needs to adopt progressive views are mostly people who are either not Catholic or lapsed catholics i.e. people who hold those progressive views themselves but aren't going to be going to mass anyway.

Most of the people actually joining returning and committing to the church are not doing so looking for the church to have the current secular views.
They are looking for something the current culture doesn't offer.

There are some deluded posts on here that obviously know little about Catholicism. Even a 'liberal' pope is not going to change teaching on ordination of women, homosexuality, divorce or abortion.

If you want a church which has basically adopted secular progressive views join the CofE.
There you will find a dying institution.

I don't think women clergy were ordained to prevent that, were they? More like recognising a half of humanity that had been excluded actually had much to offer. Exclusively male clergy doesn't make sense to me, especially as they were the ones at the heart of any scandals, most of which (that we know about, admittedly) were before women could be ordained.
There's pretty robust safeguarding in both denominations now (in the UK at least) which is positive.

Just observing that the CofE has managed to be mired in scandal just as much as the Catholic church in Ireland in the 1970s-90s, and that having women clergy has not prevented that.

Wouldn't he then choose one of the white-dominated evangelical churches? Many Catholics in the USA are Hispanic; I don't think Catholicism as such is strictly associated with being white. I wonder if it might have been more a matter of Trump choosing a Catholic running mate so that Catholic voters might be less likely to be put off by the white-evangelical Republican contingent,

Are you familiar with the workings of the CofE, and women priests, in practice? I'm wondering why you would say that so confidently.

I can't perceive the late pope in a positive light at all given his stance on Ukraine, no matter what his other declarations of love and peace were. Where do traitors go in Catholicism, to hell or purgatory? I hope he's in a good company in any case.

Communion with the pre-consecrated is the norm in many places now (including weekday masses in parishes in Ireland) - theoretically you would indeed only need one priest, but there will always be more than that, some in religious communities.

I prefer keeping ordination for priests who are male, and celibate, and in a minority, and handing over the running and administration of the church to lay people. Which in some cases would just mean giving official recognition to what is already happening.

The CofE gives us a glimpse of what can happen if you retain clericalism with added women clerics. Not a great example.

Why are the two mutually exclusive? An inclusive, spiritually generous, encouraging, kind, non-judgemental, ministry can be combined with inspiring liturgy, sacred music, profound contemplation and prayer.

But humans are muddy and contradictory!

We don’t need more fundamentalism in the world thank you. Doubt and struggle are good.

But you need a priest for every mass then? Unless the host is to be 'pre consecrated '. In which case one priest would do for the whole world. Just ordain women. It's obvious they were priests in the early church - otherwise Paul wouldn't have been moaning about it.

Why on earth is this in AIBU?

For me as an ex Catholic, Benedict’s theology, and that of most theologians, lacked humanity very often @TempestTost.

It’s very easy to be precise and dogmatic from a papal tower, wearing expensive hand made shoes, having been sequestered in clerical life since teenage years, and removed from the daily struggle of every day life that most people live.

How does theology, academic and linear, apply to the every day life of shades of grey that the majority of people live?

It sets a bar so high that most people fail and add guilt to whatever it is they struggle with. Catholic guilt is a thing, even for those of us who are no longer part of it. It is what kept people cowed and subservient for so long.

I find it as tone deaf as proclamations from the monarchy on sympathising with the struggles of every day life, which they’ve never experienced.

I can believe that whilst some of his statements may have been muddy for purists, Francis did relate to the struggles of living a ‘good’ life as defined by Catholic doctrine, in the modern world and tried to start a process of change.

Only about 40 percent of US Catholics are white. A third are Hispanic. The majority of Catholics live in the global South. It would be strange for Vance to pick RC to appear more 'white'. I'm not a fan of his politics but this seems like a bizarre accusation.

I found his request for burial quite moving. Wants only 'Franciscus'. He was a good human. We need more like him. May he RIP.

I'm sure it would, but because I see clericalism as the core problem I would see having more priests as a disaster. It is when there are huge numbers of priests supporting each other above all that abuses happen.

Male priests doing the thing that only a priest can do - the consecration - lay people doing everything else, is what I'd like to see.

I agree. The C of E hasn't gained bigger congregations with their anything goes approach. A return to spirituality is needed and what if means to live a Christian life.

oh yes

Even in rural Ireland, the proportion of brown people at any given Mass is higher than out in the street. I doubt that was Vance's motivation, but some of his political sponsors, knowing nothing about the Catholic church, could have seen it that way. I hope the Pope's work of re-setting the religious and social attitudes of those appointed as American bishops is continued by his successor. And that I live to see Dorothy Day canonised.

The majority of Catholics, even practising ones, ignore the Church's stance on contraception. The Pope himself welcomed gay people and allowed blessings in Church.
Divorce is, I agree, a thorny issue, particularly if there is one "innocent" party who is then unable to marry and receive the Eucharist. But I suppose they could just divorce and "live in sin", which again, most Catholics do before marriage anyway.

I think if priests could marry, then this would lead to more ordinations.

Until women are priests and priests can marry I think the Catholic Church cannot be all that it could be. I know many Catholics and “lapsed” Catholics who feel the same. I liked Pope Francis but he did not go far enough to make the titanic shift that is needed. I grow weary of the endless pandering to the pace of change. The church is the people and people can change.

If JD Vance wants to distance himself from brown people, in public perception, he has joined the wrong church. Whatever its other failings the RCC has never been segregated on racial lines. He might have been better advised to join one of the many fundamentalist Evangelical sects which might align more closely with his pretend hillbilly background.

otoh, I know several churches where there are regular services with the liturgy of the word and communion, that can be and are led by women. I'm not convinced that ordaining women as priests is a good idea, but am very keen on opening all the church's activities, except eucharistic consecration, to properly trained members of the laity.

Bear in mind that a person doesn't have to be a priest to be Pope. At the moment they do have to be male, but that could change, without bringing in women priests.

It's clericalism that is the worst problem.

I doubt it.
@queenofthesuburbs Until it's attitudes to women, gay people , divorced people, contraception etc have joined the 21st century, people will stay away.
The days of cowed brainwashed people being lectured and bullied by clergy who events have shown are no godlier than anyone else are long gone.
It doesn't need mysticism it needs realism and relevance to peoples lives

But not woke enough to support women priests. Or married clergy. Our local Parish Priest has to say mass at three churches. That's not sustainable as well as being inequitable.

I'm not American but I'm reading at as suggestion that Vance was distancing himself from his wife's religion and hoping that racists would therefore not think of him as brown by association or something.

It's not obvious to me.

If you're American can you spell it out please.