Why were trans threads hidden?

I agree with this.

I love the GC threads although I rarely post on them. I've found so much there which has raised my consciousness and I've learned things I hadn't properly understood.

However, sometimes it's a relief to return to the cat threads. Just for a while. Or a child-free wedding thread.

Just mixing things up.
😂

Was that comment even directed at the poster who called it out though? I doubt it was.

😂😂😂
Stop putting words in my mouth. I said/believe precisely none of that. And I wasn’t ‘policing’ your tone, I was commenting on how you sounded. I stand by my comments.

I think having gender related threads in their own section is helpful, even for people who are interested in the subject.

Sometimes it all gets to feel like too much and you need to be able to step away for your own mental health. That's where a good CF parking thread is able to shine.

Thanks for your reply.

I think that response needs to be read in the context of years and years of women making valid, important points about women's safety and dignity - only to be met with TRAs yelling 'transphobic' at anything that doesn't totally capitulate to their demands.

Laterally that turned into 'bigot' and even 'Nazi'. That's been a really wearying experience let me tell you.

Especially when all this has been directed at women at the same time. Yet almost nothing is said to condemn this ...

terfisaslur.com

As for pronouns, I find it in some ways the knottiest bit of all this, but here's an exercise that I think helps demonstrate their importance

The recent case with concerning Sandy Peggie and Dr Upton. Here are two descriptions of what Dr Upton did ...

She took her clothes off in the female changing rooms in front of the womem present.

He took his clothes off in the female changing rooms in front of the women present

These sentences describe exactly the same event, involving the same person. But they evoke a very different response, don't you think?

Thank you for your balanced response, and for the link. I don’t really agree with it, but it was interesting to read.

In response to the people talking about my message in regards to tone and taking offence at it, I can cope with passionate views. I can understand anger, and even robust interrogation. I can’t take responses seriously that use sarcasm, mockery, antagonism etc. There’s a post on the previous page that suggests a poster is a femphobic bigot and uses the term “twwannnsphobic” to mock - no one seems to be batting an eyelid about that.

I'm looking at them less and less and taking to hiding some of them now. I don't need you to tell me what to do.

So don’t read them sooty. And don’t feel the need to keep posting on them about your complaints of them being there.

Use your ability to scroll past to scroll past.

AIBU is a general topic board. Whether you want to read that thread or not is irrelevant.

I value those things and don't find them boring, but I'm not very interested in reading arguments on trans threads recycled over and over again.

Are you actually trying to shame people for working to make the UK's women's rights clearer and therefore stronger? By using the distraction tactic of 'look over there... that is where you should all be focusing, shame on you!'

I think there are a lot of people who are not used to having their views questioned and revert to stonewalling, emotional blackmail, rhetorical fallacies, DARVO and shutdown. Or just 'you're mean.'

Some are even less used to it from other women as many have been conditioned to speak in 'kindest regards' language - 'do you mind...sorry to chase...I'm probably wrong but...no worries if not!'

If you are not from an environment where you can have robust disagreement with reference to facts and evidence and still maintain friendly terms or a good relationship, then the discussion of this issue feels like 'the wrong tone'.

Even among the FWR women, there is still a tendency to open with "Of course, I support trans rights and love my trans friends ..." You don't have to do this. You can advocate for women and girls without qualification.

So what are to deduce from this? You only care about women's rights outside of the uk?

What about female prisoners in the UK. Are you okay with them being locked up with men because you support 'trans rights'? There is clearly a conflict here, agreed? So which side are you supporting?

Not having an issue with trans doesn’t mean someone isn’t for women’s rights. Just not that part which has been hijacked as women’s rights. This judgement will not have a breath of an effect to the women in Afghanistan or India, or anywhere. This judgement will literally have an effect for trans women in the UK. Don’t dress it up as anything but that.

It is a dam bursting. I am one of those who have been reading about these issues for a long time but have never had the courage (sadly) to challenge or discuss these issues in real life. Now, I feel I can start to say that I believe biological sex is important, especially for protections of women and girls, as this view is the established position of the law in the U.K. I welcome opportunities for this discussion to now happen more frequently, everywhere. I am sure I am not the only one.

I’m very thankful for the amazing, strong women who have shown such courage and have brought us to this position.

“With all due respect, I don't think it's nastiness you're facing on these threads, but (sometimes very robust) interrogation of views that don't stand up logically.”

I think so.

I think there are too many people who think they are the moderate ones, whereas their solution still causes harm to female people.

And if the complaint is that someone feels uncomfortable with precise and accurate language, it is not up to others to moderate their accurate language to suit someone’s preferences. If posters are saying ‘Imane Khelif is a male and should not be able to compete as female’ and someone comes and admonishes them for saying that Khelif is a male athlete, it says more about that persons great need to accommodate other’s identity needs than it does about contributing towards greater understanding of the issue so a solution can be found. The same about complaining that people reject the word ‘cis’ or reject using demanded pronouns that don’t reflect the material reality the conventions of the English language.

I think it is more about some people needing to remain in their personal comfort zone by vilifying others who don’t feel that need.

It is like a dam bursting.

It really started showing cracks with the Bryson case. Then Imane Khelif wedged it open further and all of a sudden women understood how the IOC has been lying to women for so long.

Then came Dr Upton and the NHS Fife. And now this has pulled it all together.

Language has been a vital tool in this issue.

We are now hearing reports that over the weekend young women are now feeling free to say what they feel about the issues after many years of being fearful of being ostracised by their peers, in employment, in education, in their social groups. They had remained quiet for years.

I am noticing so many new names in the discussion with thoughtful insights and well educated posts just on MN. Sure there are so many threads, but each one is getting posts from new people to the discussion.

The inability to tolerate the threads really is part of the righteousness some people are proud to feel. They echo weak arsed complaints but think it is because they are ‘tolerant’ people. When their contributions show that when you drill down beyond the superficial understanding of the issues, they are not tolerant people at all. They are echoing totalitarian and authoritarian complaints.

I've seen this multiple times at this stage.

The 'it's not what you say it's the way that you say it' seems a very common way of dealing with the cognitive dissonance people go through when they realise that they actually agree with most of the beliefs of the people they've been told are the bad guys.

With all due respect, I don't think it's nastiness you're facing on these threads, but (sometimes very robust) interrogation of views that don't stand up logically.

I get that people want to feel that they're being nice and accepting to others - and that is a good impulse. But it has been terribly exploited by TRA side for their own ends.

On the pronouns point, this article sums it up beautifully

https://fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

Using preferred pronouns has a huge impact on people being able to express themselves clearly, respect for scientific reality, being able to define and therefore protect women as a group.

Clear language matters so much in this debate, which is why posters insist on it.

You talk about Khelif and yes, it could well be a hard adjustment to Khelif, but he had plenty of time to make that adjustment (since puberty really) and what about the sympathy for the women he was about to fight in the ring? Surely at that point, your sympathy would have shifted to them, no?

So is your issue that you believe that people should use language that other’s request that they use for them personally and you don’t understand why others won’t do what you have chosen to do?

Do you understand what is referred to when people say that language has been used as a tool to leverage male people’s demands within society?

Oh there we go, just before I bow out. The exact type of post that I’m on about.

I'm delighted to see all the threads about the SC judgement .

The reason (I think) that there is a proliferation of threads on the subject is that it feels like a dam has burst, and women NOW feel safe enough to express things in the open. It's hard to believe that our views were censored to such an extent, but that is receding fast now.

Well done the FWS. And as for those trans who are saying "but our views were not sought in this judgment", well it wouldn't have reached the SC if the ScotGov hadn't supported you all the way and denied women a voice in the first place.

It’s not that I don’t care about the issues, or even that I disagree, it’s the way that the posts all turn that I can’t be bothered with. I do feel uncomfortable when refuse to use a trans person’s pronouns, I think that’s unnecessary for people to say they’re not anti-trans but also won’t respect a person’s chosen pronouns.

I don’t want to post on those threads, because I’ve seen people trying to explain themselves and their whole point being missed because they’ve used the term ‘cis’ to describe a woman and suddenly no one wants to discuss their post and instead just wants to pile on and tell the poster that the woman doesn’t exist because the word cis isn’t real etc or being told “you meant HE”. Real conversations and learning opportunities get buried so that people can argue about the same stuff, and it’s off putting. I also don’t want to post on those threads as it would give me anxiety, I’m already uncomfortable typing my thoughts out now as I don’t know how I’ll cope with any attacks in response. I can hold a debate, but it’s the nastiness that makes me anxious. I see people asking questions that could help them learn, but people just want to reply with “that’s not the gotcha you think it is” or to just berate them. Already in this thread, it’s been suggested that some people are just thick for thinking differently.

Sometimes I read a really good post by a person, that is eloquently written and argues the case for women’s rights in a way that makes sense without villainising trans women, but then the posts around it may ruin it and turn hostile. It reminds me a bit of the Just Stop Oil people. I care about the planet; I think it’s an important cause, but if you can’t get people inside with your methods then they’re automatically against your cause. It’s the same for JK Rowling, I can’t read what she’s saying because I simply don’t like her. I know people will come back with her charity work and great causes, but any time I’ve looked at her Twitter feed she just seems to be arguing and trolling for fun and I can’t help but see her as a smug billionaire and can’t relate to her. I also get bored of seeing thread about celebs turning into a hate fest for celebs who support trans people.

I actually can’t remember what happened about Imane K, but I remember at the time the talk of it being a genetic thing rather than her being trans, and I felt sorry for her for people calling her a man. If she had been brought up as a woman all her life and then found out she wasn’t, then I think that’s different from being trans. I’d still agree she shouldn’t be in the sport, but I don’t think people should have expected her to suddenly identify as a man and for people to start using male pronouns for her. I don’t actually know how all that ended now, and if she did turn out to be trans or not, and I don’t know the cases of the others mentioned in the post I’m replying to.

Anyways, I’ve raised my head and said what I’ve thought, and I’ll probably hide this thread now. Not sure if it will still show in the threads I’m on.