M&S changing rooms

What does 'presenting as a woman' mean though? Men wearing dressing and lipstick will still invariably look like men.

That’s for the men to work out. Nothing to do with women.

Would you not think it odd if someone presenting as a woman, was in the men’s changing area?

There is nothing in what I’ve said advocating for either the rights of men or women. Again, I’m just laying out real world clashes. What I’ve said about what M&S CAN do (eg, declare all spaces unisex) is true. And what I’ve said NEEDS clarifying (eg, implied or direct signage) is also true. What I personally think M&S SHOULD do or what I think they WILL do is entirely by the by. I’m not M&S after all.

If you’re going to get frustrated with someone for neutrally laying out scenarios of challenge that can and likely will arise, then good luck with that. Not every thread you read will be full of women describing an idealised society.

Well those are the worst kind of women.

Putting the wishes of men ahead of the needs of women.

Who cares about sexual abuse survivors or religious minority women or women who, you know, just want a bit of privacy, right?

There’s a significant amount of women who will also support them too.

Mmmmm for a person who claims not to be advocating for the rights of men to have more rights than women you seem to be doing a very good job of it.

I was an employment solicitor at the time that the Equality Act was introduced. The verdict of the Supreme Court confirms the way that the Act was intended.

The law does not give any man the right to be in women's single sex spaces where they exist.

Employers and providers of services must not indirectly discriminate against a class of employees / service users who hold a particular protected characteristic.

If a service, like M&S ,provides a service which excludes women, which it will do if it doesn't provide single sex spaces which exclude all men (including trans women) I can't see how that can be defended using the justifiable or proportionate argument. They run risk of falling foul of indirect sex and possibly indirect religious belief discrimination claims if they do this.

Even if it can it will piss off it's majority customer base. Women can no longer be called bigots for complaining about this thanks to this week's judgement.

I don't suppose that M&S will take the risk. More likely they will provide male, female and unisex. All needs met.

i said it should happen, not that I thought it would. Depressingly, I don't think we can count on men to do the decent thing here.

You seem to be confusing people simply reporting the way the world is and challenges likely to rear their heads with claiming how it ‘should’ be, which are two completely different things.

I have not said once on this thread what men or transwomen ‘should’ be able to do. Nor have I called you or anyone else bigoted. I have simply highlighted how real-world scenarios will likely clash with the law. You can’t unopen Pandora’s Box.

Why would it be weirder if they used the men's? They ARE men.

How could they prevent a trans woman from using female changing spaces? My local M&S has individual cubicles, with locks. I don’t care if trans people use these spaces. It would be weirder if they used the men’s imo.

Just my opinion.

Exactly. Photos may show a filtered face and torso but rarely do they show the person standing beside an average man. An average sized woman at 5ft 4 would be an exceedingly short man. Now some men are that short but it’s rare. The same reason why most trans women stand out is not their face but their unusual height and larger build. There is so much focus on passing on a persons face but they forget the rest

So because over the last few year's Stonewall lied about the law and businesses misapplied it you think that we should continue to let men into women's single sex spaces?

Nah, decent men stay out.

Including decent trans women.

Businesses will be idiotic to think that women will continue to keep quiet about this.

it is not bigoted to want equality for women. And by that I give the Supreme Court definition of what a woman is, to be clear this does not include trans women.

Everyone knows what sex they are and everyone needs to show some respect and obey the law.

We managed to police single sex spaces before, to a high degree, it won't be beyond us to do it again.

Photo 'gotcha' attempts are silly. The real experience of meeting this person will be completely different.

As a female, no problem with sharing changing rooms with them. Next question.

In reality who will police it? What are people going to do? Ask people to show them what's in heir pants? I have a biological female friend who frequently gets asked if she is a trans woman as she is tall, broad shouldered with a deeper voice.

I’M not rewriting anything. Society throughout history operates by an organic process of changing mentality – that’s the way it’s been since the development of civilisation. It ebbs and flows back and forth but by and large trends towards more liberal over time.

You really are determined to look at this with blinkers on.

If a big store sells vests for men and bras for women and provides a unisex changing room that has ill fitting curtains and everyone can see through the gaps as they walk to the next cubicle. It's very very easy to see how that space which has been labelled "unisex" prevents women from using it but not men.

That is indirect discrimination. All cases of indirect discrimination nearly need to be thought through in practice and written guidelines cannot cover every possible scenario.

This means that if a store labels a place unisex it needs to be very, very certain a woman cannot claim indirect discrimination from being unable to use due to decency. If no disadvantage then it's probably fine.

If it feels a woman needs a private space (followign a proportionate test to exclude males) then it will have to label it as women/ladies/females and this means TW will have to be excluded. It cannot let in some TW and and call the female customers bigots for complaining.

Just goes to show how entitled these men have become.

But no before this madness started men knew to stay out. You are rewriting history by suggesting otherwise.

How? I’m staunchly single sex spaces but I accept that sometimes a unsex locked cubicle is the only way they can accommodate everyone

If you think people ‘self police’ to standard then you’re living in a fantasy land!

You’re rather missing the point.

Well a unisex cubicle is a self contained area with a lock. I don’t like them myself but they do resolutely fit the brief of being a single sex space at the point of use.

How about a bit of self-policing? Nobody would ever have thought twice about who was using the women's changing rooms, toilets etc if all men, including the trans-identifying ones, had had the common decency to keep out.

Well said.