M&S changing rooms

Yep, we’ve established that.

If some or any people are reporting that in their experience some transpeople ‘pass’ to them, you can’t call it ‘mythical’. Whether or not they pass to you personally is by the by.

Well I wasn't.

In other words male entitlement and hatred of women.

Thanks, @Didimum

No I know you didn’t, but many do use it as shorthand, so best to clarify I thought.

Thanks for clarifying – you can think I’m talking bollocks all you want. That’s your opinion. There is more than one way to have a discussion and we can disagree on that.

So a male person’s good reasons, if they identify as a woman and subscribe to the belief system of gender differentiating from sex (or, let’s say, being of higher value than sex) could be for the following: validation of their own experience of gender/sex (as above, belief system), validation of belonging in what is largely a society set up to be binary, and/or safety should they have experienced male aggression/violence/intimidation of the type that is typically man-to-woman (eg sexual).

Since they have one half of ‘women’ supporting and affirming these reasons as ‘good’ and another half not, then I would think it’s fair to describe the dilemma as contested at the very least. Hence why I asked about moral absolutism.

Exactly. Even the more "feminine" looking men just look like men who have had lots of surgery. Ella Morgan was on GMB saying he would still use women's loos. He is quite clearly a man!

https://quillette.com/2019/11/06/what-is-autogynephilia-an-interview-with-dr-ray-blanchard/

Ray Blanchard on autogynephilia

The mythical passer.

The only time they pass in reality is in a picture with loads of filters.

Although I will add there are plenty of men who do identify as women for sexual purposes.

Making women comply through entering our spaces is part of the Kink.

Ray Blanchard acknowledges it in his work on trans identifying men.

Women have the right not to be used as part of a man's kink.

You've added the word sexual, which is interesting isn't it.

I didn't say sexual predator.

All this talk about not being able to tell if someone is a woman or a man who identifies as not a man. Men who identify as not men have been getting interviewed on every major news channel since Wednesday and every single one has been quite clearly male in appearance and behaviour.

You can believe me or not believe me - it doesn’t really matter. I still at no point have implied or directly said anything in defence of a transwomen entering a women’s sex space.

I ask you to make clear your definition of ‘predatory’ because there are an awful lot of threads on MN where posters will freely define it as sexually predatory. So yes, I think it’s important to make the distinction when throwing the word out.

Which are also important. Women don’t just ah e the right to safety, we have the right to privacy and dignity too, heaven forbid.

But safety does come into it when little girls and women have been filmed by men putting their phones under/over cubicles

Give me a male persons “good” reason for wanting access to women’s toilets.
If you continue obfuscating I’ll just have to conclude you are, in fact, talking bollocks.

I'm not talking about random shoppers not really looking at other people. I'm talking about the person who's job it is to staff the fitting room, hand you the little tag, check you've not got too many items, take them back off you if they're not right etc. Those people will be engaging with customers, close to and hearing them speak. I think its highly unlikely they won't be able to identify a TW. I know people claim there's loads where you 'can't tell', but genuinely I've never seen this. And it's a bit unfortunate that given the number of TW that are in the public eye there's not a single one who you can't tell, so that doesn't help to prove otherwise.

We have to hold the line.

Men cannot be women in respect of some single sex spaces but not others, that would be completely ridiculous.

As the Supreme Court determined on Wednesday Trans Women are Men.

I’m asking because one persons good reason is another persons bad reason. Surely that’s perfectly understandable to grasp? If not then I don’t think we’re going to get very far in a discussion. And that’s ok.

I also ask above to agree on definition of ‘predatory’, because yes it matters.

It harms women to lose single sex spaces.

The man who enters single sex spaces without consent is harming women.

He doesn't need to be there. He has the options to use the spaces for his own sex.

So he's only there for validation, he's there to use women for that. He is controlling women who have no say, and until now could call women who object bigots. He harms women who can't share a space with men, no matter how that man dresses or what he believes about himself.

He meets the definiton of predator 100%

And you will say again you are not defending him. At this point I don't believe you.

We’ll have to agree to disagree on how well some individuals blend into the background. And agreed - as by thread heading, this is solely about changing rooms in consumer facilities.

God almighty!
You insisted that men wanting access to women’s toilets are not necessarily predatory, and so I asked you for examples of other reasons they might want access.
Why can’t you just answer the question?

I think you’re deluded to think men presenting as women blend not the background.

But as I keep saying, toilets are the thin end of the wedge. The bigger issues are thankfully the place men can’t just walk in off the street or bully their way into - DV shelters, NHS wards, police cells to name but a few. This requires another person or people to get involved and they’ll be placed in the correct place.

Why are people waffling on about having to prove our sex? Nothing has changed. It’s just that a word in the law has been clarified. The EA wording - which has not changed in any way - was written well before this self ID nonsense took off. We didn’t have to prove our sex back then, so why would we now? So in a fit of “No shit Sherlock”, the process will be as it was a decade or so ago, before trans people started to misinterpret the law.

Not because TW will slip by unnoticed, which they won't of course

I mean … yes, they very definitely will. Your expectations of most people’s observation skills is off the charts if you think every transwoman will be readily identified in a busy shopping centre.