M&S changing rooms

Meanwhile it’s easier than ever now for men to enter female only spaces as they just claim to be a trans man. Proving this was never about safety.

Totally agree. And most of the clothes now look as if they’ve been designed for a Victorian themed fancy dress party.

I do like their changing rooms with doors though, hope they stay. I’m old enough to remember the horror of the communal ones in Miss Selfridge.

As to the point of the thread, I’m really interested in the reply that will, hopefully, be sent to the OP (do let us know). And I’m also keeping an eye out for anything that organisations who bought into the braying mob mentality of the TRA’s may now say. I suspect it will be a resounding silence. Or, like Ocado, they’ll blame the temp!

Surely your daughter would be happy to be challenged as that means her androgynous appearance is working.

Outrageous that you are calling woman idiots because they might challenge her. She can use the men's facilities if she passes as a man. Oh no wait...she won't want to because men can be a danger.

If they have individual rooms with lockable doors I honestly don’t care (my local one has) I feel perfectly safe and can’t see why anyone wouldn’t. Same with loo’s.

If it’s a flapping curtain/stalls job then completely agree!

My local M&S has cubicles you can see under, I don't feel safe there.

Yes, you misread it. How you choose to take what I said is up to you, not me.

My local M&S has a nice unisex changing room, little sofa area at the entrance to it, a member of staff there to answer questions, request different sizes etc and floor to ceiling , individual cubicles with locks. Personally find thus far preferable to other shops with curtains. Do you object to bored partners sat on the sofas waiting aswell or just to trans people? How do you manage at big water parks or swimming pools which now have unisex changing rooms and family rooms. Do you think someone who has been transitioned for say 20 years, has surgery, looks like a female (you could not tell unless they told you) should now have to use the men's toilets and changing rooms?

Men go into the single sex changing rooms to accompany their female partners anyway in ours (not into cubicles, they stand outside them or sit on the waiting chairs) so I’d be surprised if they change any policies now. The cubicles are lockable so I don’t care either way, but I appreciate others do.

Reasonable to ask. Don't expect the answer you should have. M+S may choose to clarify somewhere such as on its website or in small print that for them women includes those who identify as women. Or that their staff may not feel empowered to intervene should a man go into their female changing rooms. You can imagine the excuses a man could come up with.

I think it’s going to take women putting themselves through a load more court cases before this finally gets put to bed. Maybe if we’re lucky it’ll have sorted itself out for our granddaughters. Not for our daughters though. I just can’t see that happen.

Fair point. I am so filled with rage that we are back to having to defend our legal spaces that I misread your post.

Germaine Greer was right. Women really have no idea how much men hate them. The response from many to the SC ruling has made that crystal clear, again. I could fucking cry.

So my response to anyone shrugging off our hard-won and endlessly embattled rights is pretty visceral. And that’s how I take your post. “Those people care. I couldn’t care less. Shrug.”

I live in the ME. M&S's changing rooms here categorically are single sex - I know, because I emailed them & asked.

They'll bend to whatever plays best with the local zeitgeist. Pretty sure that that doesn't involve pissing off UK women of a certain age & financial status.

The difference is that last week, they could fudge & gaslight us that the huge hairy person scratching their balls & admiring their erection in frilly knickers in there, 'identified as a woman'.

Now they have two choices. They can make fitting rooms single sex & politely deny entry to anyone trying to access the incorrect facility. OR they can make everything unisex, & deal with the deeply unpopular consequences.

& no, they can't get round it with 'women & transwomen', because that would discriminate against men who don't happen to be transwomen.

They are going to have to pick a side.

Do M&S even have single sex changing rooms anymore? I thought they were just for anyone.
OP, they don’t need to offer single sex spaces. It’s a choice. The law simply means they cannot be sued for discrimination if they choose to offer them, it doesn’t meant they have to offer them. They’re a privately owned business.
They need to abide by the law for their staff, so staff would need single sex provision but they can offer whatever changing facilities they want to in their shops.

The vanishingly small number of people who looks so convincingly like the opposite sex that no one would know, will be able to go into the room for the sex they identify with.
I think that will be 1 in a million for trans women though.

Rightly or wrongly, those with 'passing privilege' will continue to use whichever space they like and go undetected. Although very few TW do and what they often perceive as having 'passed' is really usually just women not feeling confident about challenging a male.

People break the law all the time and go undetected - shops don't check every bag to see if you've stolen something, for example.

The law relies on trust that people will act lawfully and steps in when they don't and are discovered.

Those TW who use female toilets and are unseen or pass will probably continue to do so but the clarification in law means that, where a man/TW is identifiable, he can be stopped. Which hasn't been the case until now.

My closest friend is a lesbian. She usually dates quite butch lesbians. Not one of them would be mistaken for male unless someone assesses a person to be male/female based purely on their clothing choice/hair length. They all have breasts for a start!

But no one is going to start doing genital checks 🙄

I’m just not comfortable there so I’m not taking my clothes off end of chat really

Email is good, but I personally stopped shopping at M&S a few years ago, the quality has declined significantly

But you want to reduce them to being 2
dimensional by judging them solely on their genitalia?

I also know quite a few trans people, men and women. I guarantee you can’t tell that they are trans. Similarly, I know women who look quite masculine and one has been accused of being trans on multiple occasions. How do you propose they prove they aren’t in order to gain access to women only spaces?

I know quite a few transwomen. Not one of them would pass - even the one who has had surgery for jaw shape and Adam’s apple. It is something about the way they walk (possibly because of male hips) or the general shape of the body and shoulders.

Im not talking about people who dress in a ridiculous sexualised, stereotypical fashion. Not one would pass. They know this.

Fortunantly, they are a group who, while they would love to go into female only areas, don’t. We had a discussion several years ago and I said that decision not to enter female only areas was one of the things that made me truly believe they wished to live as women. I said it as a joke, but one said they had talked about it later and wanted to know what other things they did that were male.

They are a lovely group of brilliant humans (firstly) transwomen (secondly) and males (lastly) - what they are not, is women.

I think it’s very important to remember that trans, while an important part of people, is not the only part. They are not 2 dimensional.

And you’d know that by looking at them would you? Get real. There’s absolutely no way a trans man, presenting like this guy, would get into one of these holy changing rooms unchallenged.

and when they are inevitably stopped, what will they need to do to prove their qualifications to enter to you or anyone else? Drop their pants?

We don’t need to police this. We don’t make a law based on what can be successfully policed

men don’t belong in women changing rooms
that should be the expectation and that will of itself mean men will be less likely to chance it
especially the obviously male ones
people will look twice , they will notice them being spotted and know that everyone now knows that’s not ok
isng it funny how for centuries people who could almost pass as either sex never had problems ?

This person is female so yes, quite happy.

I don’t doubt you do get lots of eye rolls, if you think the staff at M&S give two hoots where you try your clothes on, you’re living in cuckoo land. All you’ve done is made your own lice harder…while still purchasing their items 😂

My daughter presents androgynous. She won’t currently go into ladies toilets without another woman as she has previously received comments even as a teenager. If you think she won’t be challenged in ladies changing rooms now you know nothing. The reality is she will just have to avoid them because of idiots who will try and police an un police able situation.